Can books teach us anything about our leaders today?
*Argue which tragic elements from your new novel and Oedipus Rex are displayed.
*You may wish to compare and to contrast the 2 books you have read (or should now be reading) using Oedipus as the "perfect" tragedy.
*What new information have you learned about Sophocles or about tragedy from the REQUIRED database search? Copy/paste this to the end of your blog posting
*You may incorporate feminism, historical elements, comparison to Shakespearian tragedies, hubris, hamartia, catharsis, or any other tragic elements. You may also argue that your book has no tragic elements, but be careful to back up with quotes/evidence.
*We should have most of Oedipus covered by now as well, but if we did not finish in class, add in content we have covered most recently.
You may discuss any beginning segments of your new novel, but do not spoil the end of the book (yet). If you need more tragedy elements, please consult our notes, Sophocles notes, and/or the "pure" definition by Aristotle in these 2 websites here and here.
Funny pun names based on any of the literature--encouraged :)
For full credit, you MUST have quotations as support of your points from both texts, you MUST show reading and avoid online summary info, you MUST respond to a minimum of 2 posts. Points will be deducted for those students who wait until the last 12-24 hours, for spelling problems, repeating information already stated, confusing responses, attacking classmates verbally, simply agreeing without saying much of anything, or off-topic commentary.
------APA documentation must be used----
DATABASES REQUIRED FOR THIS BLOG, but your argument will be judged harshly, so be prepared to defend yourself!
**This blog will end at 9 a.m. on 10/25. Remember that starting on the last 12-24 hours prior will result in loss of points since your discussion will be limited.
There are many tragic elements from Oedipus Rex, One of them being fatal flaw. Oedipus has a very bad temper and is not good at controlling it. He kills all the people at the crossroad just because the carriage accidentally struck him. Oedipus even truthfully admitted “then I killed them all.” (Sophocles, 2010, line 812) Oedipus is also very hubris towards an abundance of people. He believes he is superb over everyone and is very self centered. When Oedipus was talking to Teiresias , he was bashing him for his anger but then Teriresias stands up for himself and says, “you blame my temper but you do not see your own that lives within you.” (Sophocles, 2010, line 338) Which goes to show the Oedipus is quick to point out other people’s flaws but not good at admitting his own. The play also starts with a bad omen because Laius had died.
ReplyDeleteA tragic element in the book I’m reading The Quiet Room, is the main character becomes isolated/damaged. Lori Schiller, who is one of the main characters in the novel used to have an outstanding life. Lori had plenty of friends and a stable social life plus her and her mom were very close. Later as the book went on she was experiencing a very depressed thoughts and soon became suicidal. Lori was in and out of hospitals and starting to distance herself from many friends. On page 69 Marvin and Nancy, Lori’s parents found out Lori had a schizophrenia disorder. The doctor told them “ Lori is a very sick girl. This hospital specializes in short-term treatments Lori doesn’t have a short term problem. We’d like to recommend that she be transferred to another hospital in Westchester.” (Schiller and Bennett, 2011, page 69) And from there on Lori has been isolated to where she wasn’t allowed to leave her hospital room alone. Let alone continuing to become more damaged mentally Loris mom admits or her issues has damaged their relationship between the two of them. Nancy said, “ Lori was more than just my daughter, she was everything I wanted.”(Schiller and Bennett, 2011, page 60) Now times have changed and all Nancy does is question why her “everything” doesn’t want to be alive and worries about what is right to say to her. Nancy states “I had to convince her that life was worth living.” (Schiller and Bennett, 2011, page 59) Nancy went from having a little girl she loved and play dolls with, to walking on the streets putting on a fake face for her sick daughter and pretending everything is okay. There is also a prologue in this novel, the opening scene talks about Lori Schiller at camp. The background the scene gave, described the earliness of Lori‘s sickness and she said she had heard voices and they said “you must die! You must die!” (Schiller and Bennett, 2011, page 5) The whole opening scene itself could be a character on the way it was written.
Both Oedipus and The Quiet Room are tragedies, but Oedipus is the “perfect” tragedy. Oedipus is an older play and has more characteristics of a perfect tragedy like killing people and incest. Which on the other hand The Quiet Room is more modern and easier to understand. The book has conflicts that fit today’s society's problems for example, depression. Also this book has characters, like Lori falling from status as I mentioned before, unlike Oedipus.
Good job at showing how evil Oedipus really is. That other book seems a little gruesome but it's interesting how it goes into the detail of mental disorders and the effect on a person.
DeleteI agree with your first sentence. Oedipus being hostile and having a bad temper with everything is quite bad. If he was able to control his temper it would have saved him from many of the bad things that happened such as killing his own father and it eventually coming back to get him sent away from his land. If he never killed his father (which at the time did not know he was his father) at the crossroads that day he would have gone against the prophecy and in the long run would never have caused the plague to kill the (his) people of Thebes.
DeleteI agree with you that Oedipus has a very bad temper. I would say that is temper is what cause him to be very impulsive. As you said he goes to the crossroad and kills five people just because he was mad which to me is a very good example of impulsive. Another is when Creon asks if Oedipus is going to banish him Oedipus says," No Certainly, kill you not banish you."(Sophocles, 2010,Line 623) Here we can see that Oedipus was willing to kill his wife's brother because he thought he was plotting against him. But in all reality he was just telling Oedipus the truth. In the end you say that Oedipus does not fall from Status but I believe that he does he loses his wife, crown, eyes, and pride. Oedipus with nothing says," That shall send me out to live away from Thebes." (Sophocles,2010, Line 1518) This shows Oedipus excepting his fate that he is nothing and has been banished from the land. Great post and Quiet Room seems very interesting!
Delete@Lori S, although I have not read your second book I can definitely agree with you that a character being isolated plays a huge role in a tragedy. Isolation can lead you to do all sorts of odd things, and it is sad to read some of the things that she had to go through.
DeleteFrom the required database research I learned that Sophocles was a general and a priest, then when he died he was worshiped as a hero. He also had a lot of winnings in drama, out of 123 dramas he “won first place 20 times and never failing lower than second.” (Goldhill, 2012) His most famous tragedy was Oedipus, “the plot is based on the Oedipus legend.” (Goldhill, 2012) Oedipus was written shortly before Sophocles’ death. In the database Goldhill states “ Oedipus; it is a quiet, simple play of great beauty and power.” Which I agree with, there is a lot of power shown in this play. Oedipus was not afraid to use his emotions and prove how powerful and strong he was (catharsis). He states that only he can solve the riddles the prophecies gave because he believed so highly in himself, that he was the only one powerful and strong enough to do so. Talking to Teiresias he says “But I came, Oedipus, who knew nothing, and I stopped her. I solved the riddle by my wit alone. Mine was no knowledge got from birds.” (Sophocles, 2010, line 397) Oedipus was expressing that he believed that people didn’t think he was smart enough, but he proved them wrong saying he solved it all on his own with no help.
ReplyDeleteDatabase research link: http://eds.a.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/detail/detail?vid=5&sid=1c23d971-5f57-4736-befc-aa3ae51cd752%40sessionmgr4007&bdata=JkF1dGhUeXBlPWlwLGNwaWQmY3VzdGlkPXM2OTQ0Mjc4JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#AN=134495414&db=lfh
References:
Schiller, L., & Bennett, A. (2011). The quiet room: a journey out of the torment of madness. New
York: Grand Central Publishing.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago Press.
Both Oedipus and The Quiet Room are tragedies. Oedipus talks about his father that tried to force him to have sexual intercourse with his mother. This would be traumatizing for anyone. One could argue that this encounter is why Oedipus is so stuck up and arrogant. Oedipus also is very hubris. He thinks he is better than the other people around him all because he solved the riddle of the sphinx. “A champion of my country and the God.” (sophocles, 1942, line 134) He has a mind set where he always has to be the one in charge of himself and that he is always benefiting himself. “So helping the dead king I help myself.” (sophocles,1942, line141). On the other hand, according to columbia university press, It is normal for children to think of these ideas on their own and blame the other parent. “attraction on the part of the child toward the parent of the opposite sex and rivalry and hostility toward the parent of its own. It occurs during the phallic stage of the psycho-sexual development of the personality, approximately years three to five.” (Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th Edition,)
ReplyDeleteIn Oedipus, he loses everything he thought he knew about. He thought his family was his birth family when they actually were not. Oedipus found out that he had been found in the bushes by a servant and given to the people who he calls his parents. The little baby he heard about getting his ankles impaled so that the baby would not kill his father, was in fact Oedipus. His wife found out about all of this and left him immediately because he was no longer born from power. “O Oedipus, unhappy Oedipus! That is all I can call you, and the last thing that I shall ever call you.” (sophocles,1942, line 1071-1073).
In The Quiet Room, Lori also loses everything she has even known. When Lori was a young girl she was happy, popular, and involved. “ At first, it simply seemed as if she was as if she was depressed because she was so fun-loving” (Shiller, Bennett, 1994, pg. 30). When the voices in her head started, she began to take a step back from her life. She had started lying to everyone she loved. “ It was the first time I ever kept anything from Gail. We had been as close as sisters. We did everything together.” (Schiller, Bennett, 1994, pg.15). In her senior year of college, all her friends just thought she was being over dramatic but that is when things really started getting bad. Lori had lost all her friends and the only one that stayed around was because she felt obligated to take care of Lori. When Lori was in college, she locked herself away in her dorm room for many days because the voices in her head were telling her to kill other people. She was afraid that if she left her room she would hurt someone or herself so she shut the world out and isolated herself. Both of these stories are tragedies in many different ways. I would say The Quiet Room is more a tragedy then Oedipus.
References
Oedipus complex. Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th Edition, [s. l.], p. 1, 2019. Disponível em:
. Acesso em: 22 out. 2019.
I like how you went into detail explaining what could be the cause of the way Oedipus acts.
DeleteI agree with the statement about Oedipus being hubirs and thinking he is better than anyone else. I also agree with The Quiet Room being a tragedy but I don't agree with the statement "Lori also loses everything she has even known" because she did not. For one she had her mother Nancy who went and visted her in the hospital everyday, even though it was so hard on her to watch her daughter suffering.On page 59 in the queit room Nancy was saying how hard it was on her to put a fake face on for lori, and said "I had to keep control. I couldn't let her see me cry. I had to be cheerful, and upbeat and smiling and supportive. I had to play a role." She also went on saying how she would bring Lori peresents in the hospital to try and cheer her up. And later in the book she got a psychiatrist to help her work through her problems out of the hospital, he also cared about her a lot too. The psychiatrist name was Dr.Rockland, and when he noticed Loris actions started getting out of hand again he made her go back into the hospital for her saftey. When he suggested to Lori about going back she came at him and said "I would definitely kill myself before I went back in that place." She was very unhappy with him, but he told her "it would just be for a short time, just to adjust Lori's medication." (Schiller and Bennett, 2011, page 137) So Lori did not lose everything, she had people who ared about her very much
DeleteI think Lori did lose everything because even though her mother visited her everyday, Lori does not really remember that. Everyone around her is still doing their part in her life, but the voices decide what is true or not. To Lori, she does not see any of that. all she sees is the world is out to get her so from Lori's point of view, she loses everything.
DeleteCons, I do not think you talked about The quiet room enough in the first paragraph. The first paragraph should be the introduction paragraph but I feel like the beginning kind of throws me head first into essay and that it does not discuss the whole meaning of the blog, which is both books. Pros, I liked your quotes and the different aspects of Oedipus's character that you mention.
Delete@Travis Scoot,
Deletethank you for your feedback.
Here is another one of my references.
DeleteOedipus complex. (2019). Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th Edition, 1. Retrieved from http://search.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=ip,cpid&custid=s6944278&db=lfh&AN=134485588&site=ehost-live&scope=site
Some books can teach us about leaders today but not all. If a book is sorta outdated due to the fact that their ideas of a leader may be different in ways such as values and morals. Most books are tragedies which can help teach a books main character that can shape them into a leader. There are multiple elements of tragedy in Sophocles play “Oedipus”. Oedipus is the newly king after the old one was murdered. He is at very high status just because that’s how kings are. They are basically above all. As the book continues we find out that Oedipus was there when the king was killed and may or may not have done it. If this news gets out he will have a very hard fall from his throne. So far only his wife knows and she is disgusted.He would lose everything if the people knew of this. His most fatal flaw would be his pride. He is very prideful with his position. Oedipus is also a rude man. In my opinion he is not a good example of a leader “it has no strength for you because you are blind in mind and ears as well as in your eyes”(Oedipus pg.26, Line 370-372). This comment from Oedipus shows you how rude he is. He is calling Teiresias oblivious while also making fun of him for being blind. I view leaders as a role model type figure. Would I like my kid to one day be like this? The answer is no! This book has every aspect needed to make it a tragedy. My other book “Ditch Digger’s Daughters” is not really a tragedy at all. The characters aren't much of a high status and they can’t lose everything if the don’t have anything. The father has to work many jobs in an attempt to provide for his family and they all are already isolated from society. “My dad, a black man, a ditch digger, a laborer, a janitor, went out and hired a lawyer”(Thornton pg.72), this was Donalds reaction when a manager to a theater kept postponing his daughters performances due to their race. It shows how determined and hard working and how they would fight for what's right.They don’t have many friends due to their race, they are basically the “odd man out”. The story itself is tragic at times but i wouldn’t classify it as a tragedy. Both of these books are very different. Oedipus is about murder in the kindom and greek gods and magic and the fall of the king. Ditch Digger’s Daughters is about the rise of a black man in american and trying his best to have a successful family. Oedipus is about fall DDD is about success. I would view Donald from “The Ditch Digger’s Daughters” as a leader. He spends the whole book telling his daughters life lessons and trying their best to succeed. Hge is spending his time to better others while Oedipus on the other hand only cared about himself and his success.
ReplyDeleteI like how you went into detail explaining what could be the cause of the way Oedipus acts.
DeleteJust letting you know you have the same comment twice, and this one is under your own blog.
DeleteI dissagree with The Ditchdiggers Daughters not being a tragedy. I beleive it is very much so a tragedy, Donald got turned down by the bank to build a house for his daughters. The house was being built by a better school just so his girls couldget a good education and "grow up to be doctors." Plus only one of his daughters actually becomes a real doctor and lives up to daddy's expectations. Daddy put in so much extra work and money into all of them becoming doctors when only one follwed through with it. That seems like a tragedy to me.
Delete@Lori S
DeleteWhile Ditchdiggers's may be sad in some aspects, a tragedy has certain characteristics. A tragedy typically begins with the main character having a high status, and a subsequent fall from said status due to a massive flaw of theirs. In Ditchdigger's, the Thorntons begin with no status then become doctors and form an extremely successful band. So, even though not all of the children become doctors (a VERY ambitious goal), I don't see how this could possibly qualify as a tragedy.
@Daddy, I would agree with you. I feel like a tragedy is something that happens through the book. I would also say ditch diggers is not a tragedy. However I would say towards the end of the book, the things that happen to mom and dad could be said as maybe a tragedy. (I do not want to spoil what happens to them though)
DeleteYou said the Oedipus's most fatal flaw was his pride. I personally do not agree that it was his most fatal. His pride definitely was a flaw but not the most, there were other things such as hostility or his internal conflict I learned about with the research. As a king I believe you should have some pride within yourself but the hostility towards the situations Oedipus was in was not a good thing to have as a king. He would make fun of people or ban them when they were just trying to help him and tell him the truth. His immediate response to the situation would be to get all offensive and want to kill them or send them away forever for lying or being a "false friend" (Sophocles, 2010, line 584).
DeleteCons, wording, the blogger tells the readers that Oedipus's wife is disgusted, I did not get that from the reading and I do not believe she had feelings that extreme, and the blogger mentions how the Thornton daughters have no friends because of their skin color, ignoring how their father restricted their contact with people outside the family. Pros, the blogger mentions their opinion, they pick a side.
Delete@daddy Donald, in Ditchdiggers Daughters, is very hubris which is a tragic element. He has plenty of pride in himself and brags about it. He also teaches his daughgters to be prideful and brag about themselves. For an example he himself brags about being the first black man to get a mortgage from the bank, building his house on his own, and having his daughter Yvonne a doctor.
Delete@BlindMan123 I would completely disagree with you on your claim that the Thorntons can not lose everything because they do not have anything. To them, their family is their everything. The hard work Tas and Donald have put into making sure their family has a roof over their head despite all the hardship is what they have. When you have as little as the Thorntons did, small things become just as important as the things a high status man has, like Oedipus.
Delete@Lori S I disagree that Donald is hubris. Hubris means someone is prideful to a fault. He definitely is prideful and you may consider it bragging when he talks about being the first African American to get a mortgage from the bank, but I do not think this is a fault. His pride and way of life got at least one of his daughters to become a doctor and one sounds a whole lot better than none.
Delete@ Lori S, I also disagree with you. I believe Donald is proud of himself in a motivational way for his daughters. Hubris means more like they are arrogant and selfish. Donald is the complete opposite of selfish. He does everything for his children and his wife.
Delete@ daddy yes i am aware i commented twice on two different posts the first one was an accident lol. @ Jeanette i do see where you are coming from their family is rather close and all they really need. @Travis Scoot I mean it has to be obvious his wife was disgusted i mean she literally hung herself, what other reason would she have for doing this? I also did evaluate the fathers restriction on the outside and the reason he is so strict is because of racism which has to do with their skin color and because of their restrictions they have no friends.
DeleteSources:
DeleteThornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J. (2008). The ditchdiggers daughters: a
black familys astonishing success story. New York: Dafina.
Oedipus complex. Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th Edition, [s. l.], p. 1, 2019. Disponível em:
. Acesso em: 22 out. 2019.
You gave great reasons about how The Ditchdigger's Daughter is not a tragedy. Every point was extremely solid. On the other end, I felt that your Oedipus paragraph was weak in comparison to the last. Somewhat broad but you still gave good information.
DeleteOedipus is a perfect example of a tragedy, and contains all the major elements of a tragedy. Oedipus is a king, renowned for solving the riddle of the Sphinx. He has a loving wife, four kids, and, presumably, a large amount of money. In all ways, he is successful and of high status. His major weakness is his pride, which causes him to think that he’s above others. This is the cause of his eventual fall from status. While speaking to the chorus, he says “Upon the murderer I invoke this curse - whether he is one man and all unknown, or one of many - may he wear our his life in miserable doom!”. (Grene, 2010, lines 246-249) He says this while knowing full well that he is almost undoubtedly the one who killed the king. At the end of the play his curse comes true, as he is blind, miserable, wifeless, and no longer the king. Creon won’t even allow him to be exiled! Of course, Oedipus realizes what he had done and just wishes he had died the day he was abandoned. His moment of self-reflection was really quite cathartic, as it was intended to be. If this isn’t a tragedy, I don’t know what is.
ReplyDeleteThe Ditchdigger’s Daughters is quite the opposite of Oedipus. It begins with the Thornton family, a poor black family, which is an extremely low status. While Oedipus is prideful, the Thorntons are quite the opposite. This is mainly led by Donald, the father. He opens the book by saying “You kids are black. You’re dark-skinned and ugly.”. (Thornton, 2008, page 3) While he is definitely humble to begin with, this extreme attitude was created out of necessity. He wishes his daughters a successful life, so he makes sure that they understand what other people may think of them. He is quite successful. No matter how successful she becomes, Yvonne, the main character and Donald’s daughter, never lets the success go to her head. She manages to become a doctor while being in an extremely successful band, and never once thinks of herself as higher than anyone else. While there is death near the end, it is nothing on the scale of a tragedy like Oedipus. Overall, this is a story about rising from the bottom because of perseverance and humility, the exact reverse of Oedipus’s story of a man losing his status due to his impulsiveness and pride. But was it Oedipus’s fault? Was it even possible for Oedipus to escape his fate?
While searching databases, I came across this journal about Oedipus defying the gods. It says that Oedipus was doomed to fulfill the prophecy no matter what happened. This is because the gods are all-knowing, so the prophecy isn’t a prediction as much as an observation of what they already know to be true. I find this fascinating, as I never thought about the implications of all-knowing gods. If the gods know everything, then they know what people are going to do in the future, so nobody can possibly change their fate. This perspective makes the story of Oedipus even more depressing, as not only did he mess everything up and lose it all, there was no way he could have stopped it.
If I don't respond to your comments, don't blame me, blame the gods!
References
Silberman, Lauren. “God and Man in ‘Oedipus Rex.’” College Literature,
vol. 13, no. 3, 1986, pp. 292–299. JSTOR,
www.jstor.org/stable/25111712.
Thornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J. (2008). The ditchdiggers daughters: a
black familys astonishing success story. New York: Dafina.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago Press.
I agree with you that Oedipus is a tragedy, but I think his pride was not what caused his down fall. I think this down fall was inevitable because the gods told him he his fate. On line 972 it states that the prophecies tell Oedipus that he is destined to kill his father and breed children with his mother. All Oedipus did was try and run from his fate. But running from the gods never works as we see here he runs and ends up setting the plan into motion. Great post!
DeleteCons, it is not known if Oedipus knew he killed the king the whole time. I do not agree with the idea that the Thorntons are the opposite of prideful, that would be if they thought lowly of themselves. Donald wanted his children to work with what they have and keep their heads high. Pros, I like the reasoning and the database research.
DeleteReasons why I believe that Oedipus is a tragedy because it fills out a lot of the aspects in which greek tragedies have. First is high status, of course we all know Oedipus is the king of Thebes. Which is where the title of the book came from. Second a fall from status, Oedipus falls from the throne and asked to be banished from the land. Oedipus says to Creon,” Drive me from here with all the speed you can to where I may not hear a human voice.” (Sophocles, 2010, Lines 1436-1437) Third Oedipus loses everything, he loses his crown and his wife who is filled with grief. Line 1263 it states that Jocasta is seen hanging with a twisted rope around her neck. Oedipus filled with the grief of seeing his mother/wife’s death, stabs his own eyes out.Fourth, Oedipus from his birth has had his decisions influenced by the prophecies without even knowing it. But one day he went to Phoebus and he said, “ Oedipus is fate to lie with his mother, and show to daylight an accused breed which men would not endure, and Oedipus was doomed to be murderer of the father that begat him”. (Sophocles,2010, Line 792) With this new information Oedipus scared of his fate fled from home where he thought this father and mother where but in reality his leaving set in motion the prophecies to be true. The Fifth aspect is a fatal flaw to me Oedipus’s flaw is his temper, he is very hubris on many occasions. One is as he left this kingdom in Corinth he walked down Phoci’s road and came to a crossroad where he meets a coachman with a man in a carriage. The coachman tried to thrust Oedipus out of the way and he became mad. He says, “I became angry and struck the coachman who was pushing me.” (Sophocles, 2010, Line 806-807) Then the man in the carriage strikes Oedipus making him more enraged so Oedipus says,” I struck him backwards from the car and he rolled out of it. And then I killed them all.” ( Sophocles, 2010, Line 811-812) I do not know about you but when someone gets me mad I do not just kill them but to each their own I guess. Sixth is damaged relationships, from the beginning Oedipus has had damaged relationships from his family, the messenger that came to tell Oedipus that is father Polybus has past but not only that he also says,” Polybus was no kin to you in blood.” (Sophocles, 2010,Line 1017) What he is saying is that he is not related to Polybus at all and this sets up the setting for Oedipus to be related to Laius the old king. Seventh it starts with a bad omen, the begin of Oedipus opens up with the town of Thebes with the town filled with pledge and death. On Page one Line 4 it says,” the town is heavy with mingled burden of sounds and smells, of groans and hymns and incense.” Eighth is free will, Oedipus runs a kingdom of course he has a lot of free will!
ReplyDeleteThe research that I found on Sophocles is that he was born in Colonus near Athens in 496 B.C. and died in 406 B.C. Towards the end of his life when he was writing the play I believe he drew inspiration for Athens at the time. War had started to break out outside of Athens causing the farmers to flee to the city. With no food being produced the city people became starved and filth and plague from over population came to set in This is exactly how Thebes in Oedipus! Also the leader of Athens was sending troops to war and with a small victory in 404 giving hope to the land. Laster on unfortunately the commander fails to save two thousand of his men in the aftermath. But with the victory they could have created a treaty but instead the later tried to push on and ended up getting defeated. This leader sounds like Oedipus never excepting fate until it is starting him in the face. In my research I found a man named Weigel, Jr., James he states that Oedipus is a tragedy as well. He writes," Conceived and written, Oedipus Tyrannus is a drama of self-discovery. Sophocles force by limiting the dramatic action to the day on which Oedipus learns the true nature of his birth and his destiny. The fact that the audience knows the dark secret that Oedipus killed his father and married his mother does nothing to destroy the suspense. Oedipus’s search for the truth has all the tautness of a detective tale, and yet because audiences already know the truth they are aware of all the ironies in which Oedipus is enmeshed. That knowledge allows the audience to pity the man whose past is gradually and relentlessly uncovered to him.” Which I feel is very true, yes he is not the perfect man but he trying to do right by finding the murderer and when he finds out he was the one he banishes himself. This leaves us with pity that poor Oedipus did not know that he was even doing these foul things how does he deserve to be punished. I think he does not and should be set free because how was he supposed to know that was his father and mother. If anything I think Jocasta should be more to blame.
ReplyDeleteReferences:
GRIGORIADIS, I. (2011). Greek Tragedy. World Policy Journal,28(2), 101-109. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/41479387
Sophocles, Clay, D., & Berg, S. (2010). Oedipus the king. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.
Van Nortwick, T. (2015). Late Sophocles. In Late Sophocles: The Hero’s Evolution in Electra,
Philoctetes, and Oedipus at Colonus(pp. 115-124). ANN ARBOR: University of Michigan Press. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/j.ctv3znzg2.9
Weigel, J. . J. (2010). Oedipus Tyrannus. Masterplots, Fourth Edition, 1–3. Retrieved from
http://search.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=ip,cpid&custid=s6944278&db=lfh&AN=103331MP423999560000518&site=ehost-live&scope=site
Cons, no mention of a second book. Pros, easy to understand listing of reasons (could be considered basic writing technique) and plenty of quotes and resources.
DeleteI have my second book listed below.
Delete@Smiley I agree with you when you say that Oedipus was not aware of what he was doing. However I do not see how Jocasta was to blame. When she and King Laius abandoned Oedipus he was just a baby so how is she supposed to know that the man she was with was him ? I know he had scars on his ankles but realistically no one goes around just looking at ankles.
DeleteThe New book I choose to read is The Great Gatsby, I believe that it is a tragedy. If we look at Jay Gatsby we can compare him to Oedipus. Although He is not a king, Jay has high status with his big mansion and is lavish fashion. Jay along with Oedipus had influenced decisions, Gatsby’s were influenced by a girl named Daisy. Nick the narrator learns this from Jordan Baker she says,” Gatsby bought the house so that Daisy would be across the bay.”(Fitzgerald, 2004, page 78) Daisy not knowing Jay had done this as he longed for her and would stand outside at night and look at the green light off the end of her dock. Gatsby also has damaged relationships,just like Oedipus his relations with his parents are rocky. Jay’s real name was James Gatz, born in North Dakota to farmers. James did not really accept him as his parents saying on page 98,” his imagination had never really accepted them as his parents at all.” He says his parents as unsuccessful and leaves them at seventeen to travel with a man named Dan Cotey who he met on his yacht when Jay went to warn him about the storm. Cotey was very grateful and allowed him to travel around with him and gave him the new name. In Oedipus the audience is left with great emotions after jocasta’s death and the stabbing of Oedipus eyes. The chorus even say,” This is a terrible sight for men to see!” (Sophocles,2010, Line 1298) In Great Gatsby the audience is left with the feeling of Mystery and suspense because no one knows who Jay Gatsby really is. At one of his parties Nick meets up with Lucille and some of her friends and they talk about some of the suspicions. Lucille says,” I hear he is a German spy during the war.” Her friend said,” I heard he killed a man in cold blood.” (Fitzgerald, 2004, Page 44) This leaves us wondering who is this man but even after meeting Gasby he does not share that much about himself. What he does share we find out to be a lie. Like Oedipus, Jay is hiding from the truth. Oedipus as he tries to run from his fate and convict anyone else of his crime he did not know he was even committing but in the end the truth finds it way out. In The Great Gatsby, Jay says to NIck that, “ I am the son of some wealthy people in the Middle West all dead now. I was brought up in America but educated at Oxford because his ancestors were educated there for many years.” ( Fitzgerald, 2004, Page 65) He goes on to say he is from San Francisco and his parents death is how he got the money. But as I mentioned before his real name was James Gazt born in North Dakota to poor farmers. It even states on page 99 that he attended the small Lutheran College of St. Olaf and worked as a janitor to pay with tuition but after two weeks he dropped out and got a new job working as a fisherman on Lake Superior. These are some reasons why I believe it can be considered to be a Tragedy!
ReplyDeleteReferences:
Fitzgerald, S. F. (2004). The Great Gatsby. New York: Scribner Trade.
Sophocles, Clay, D., & Berg, S. (2010). Oedipus the king. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.
I think The Great Gatsby is a tragedy as well as Oedipus. You mentioned that his Jay's parents did not except him. Oedipus had problems with his family as well. at the end of the play he finds out who his real parents are and that it damages their relationships. I agree with what you said with both of the stories being tragedies.
DeleteDid a good job of comparing the characters in your book The Great Gatsby, to Oedipus.
DeleteThank you for the support!
DeleteI really like how you compare the two characters to each other as well as the tragedies they both face. They are very similar in more than one way. You did a very good job comparing them back to back. You can really see how tragedy elements have stayed the same throughout the years.
DeleteWithin the book Ditchdigger’s Daughters by Yvonne S. Thornton the beginning pages provide a clear prologue about the parents (Donald and Itasker), in these pages the readers learn that the parents have endured a difficult life, in which, despite all of their hard work it truly did not pay off. Itasker, also referred to as Tas worked hard at school and in her job to one day become a teacher, although she has made it throughout all three years and only had one remaining she could not afford to pay for the last year. “I’d worked so hard...all slipping away from me.”(Thornton, 1995, pg.8) Donald is a great family orientated man, although towards the middle of the book his relationship with his wife starts to dwindle. Of course this is not what he wanted but the stress it has caused on him when Jeanette and Donna announced that they were not going to become doctors was too much for him and he turned that stress into blaming his wife. “...He turned on her and heaped blame, sending her fleeing into silence.” (Thornton, 1995, pg.128) Even though their relationship was soon fixed later on in the book “He was gentle with Mommy.” (Thornton, 1995, pg.135) it was still very unsettling to see that Donald started to resent his wife and somewhat damaged their relationship because choices made by their children. Just like Donald possessed the hubris personality trait so did his second eldest daughter, Jeanette. When Jeanette finally plucked up enough courage to start defying her father's rules it was very difficult to keep her in line. In multiple instances Jeanette told her father it was her way or no way, just like when she wanted to ride with her friends instead of her family to a concert they were going to be performing at. “Either we’re going with Paul and his friends or we’re not going at all.”(Thornton, 1995, pg.123)
ReplyDeleteOedipus the king is considered the “perfect tragedy” for perfect reasons. In the beginning of the play Oedipus resents everyone else and believes that he is much better than them, but when the truth comes out about his life, he realizes that he is the one that is in the wrong, and becomes his own worst enemy. “Madness and stabbing and pain and memory of evil deeds I have done!” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 1316-1317) Another reason why Oedipus is thought to be a “perfect tragedy” is because there are many influenced decisions throughout the play, the biggest one being why Oedipus was given up as a small child in the first place. King Lauis let the message from the prophecy influence his decision to get rid of Oedipus, after hearing about how his son was going to kill him later in life he thought getting him out of his life was the best solution. We later learn that Oedipus killed King Lauis anyway. “For Loxias declared that the king should be killed by his own son.” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 854-855) Oedipus is also one for being known to be quite hubris, and the chorus makes point of it by using phrases such as. “Haughtiness” (Sophocles, 2010, line 884) and “ill-starred pride of heart!” (Sophocles, 2010, line 888)
Oedipus and Ditchdigger’s Daughters both hold some of the same tragedy elements. In a sense and some point in the books the characters believe to have lost everything. In the Ditchdigger’s daughters Donald has to work two jobs to provide for his family one in the day, and one at night. His night job, a janitor position at Fort Monmouth was not ideal but it got the mortgage paid, however his manager found out about his second job and decided to cruelly put him on the day shift so he would be forced to quit his other job. (Thornton, 1995, pg.64) To Donald this was the end of the world, his biggest fears in life all seemed to become true and his house that he had worked so hard on building was on the verge of getting taken away from him. Likewise in Oedipus, he finds out that he ended up killing his own father and had relations with his mom. He was merely a young child given away by the King Lauis, passed around by the second messenger and finally to the Polybus. Throughout the play, Oedipus was in denial about killing his father and when he later finds out that he did in fact do it, he tells Creon to take him far away so he is banished from the land. “Drive me from here with all the speed you can to where I may not hear a human voice.” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 145-146)
DeleteIn the research that I had come upon, I learnt that the play was performed between 426 and 430 BC. The play was a huge success and was the most “powerful and haunting of Greek tragedies.” Oedipus the King was such a victory because it portrays the perfect use of recognition and discovery and also heightened tension. Later in the life of Sophocle he went on to write a new play called Oedipus at colonus, which tells the story of how he became a mysterious source of defense to his land. (Webster, 1995)
Database link:
http://eds.a.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/detail/detail?vid=22&sid=2435d35b-3e76-44b3-8377-1a7d6cebfdbb%40sdc-v-sessmgr02&bdata=JkF1dGhUeXBlPWlwLGNwaWQmY3VzdGlkPXM2OTQ0Mjc4JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#AN=17216385&db=lfh
References:
Thornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J. (2008). The ditchdigger's daughters: a black familys astonishing
success story. New York: Dafina.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago Press.
Oedipus the King. (1995). Merriam-Webster’s Encyclopedia of Literature, N.PAG. Retrieved
from http://search.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=ip,cpid&custid=s6944278&db=lfh&AN=17216385&site=ehost-live&scope=site
I like how you compared the two in a compleatly different paragraph. I would agree when saying that Donald thought it was the end of the world, but on the other hand Oedipus is over here with people dying left and right. So what side are you on? Do you think Ditchdiggers Daughters is a tragedy or not?
Delete@EASTER I believe that Ditchdigger's Daughters has some tragedy elements, it shows struggles in the beginning but towards the middle, things start to look up for the family. I cannot be sure of whether it truly is a tragedy as I have not finished the book, but at the time being it does not appear to be one.
DeleteYou brought up the point of King Laius trying to kill Oedipus when the prophecies revealed to him that he should kill him and bear children with his mother. A messenger said,"I found you on Cithaeron's slopes in the twisting thickets you were found. The tendons of your feet were pierced and fettered."(Sophocles,2010,Line 1026 and 1034) What the messenger found was baby Oedipus with s medal bar through his ankles. So can we not say that even King Laius tries changing Oedipus's fate. I think Oedipus was dummed from the start and did not get a fair shot in life, which causes me to feel pity for Oedipus. I think under his temper he was just a King that loves his family and kingdom. Keep up the great work on your post!
Delete@Smiley Oedipus did have a tough start in life but he pretty much made his prophecies come true. His blind rage at the crossroads caused the death of his father and in turn made him lay with his mother. Sure, under his temper he might be a great guy but losing his temper is what ruined his life and that is no one else's fault but his.
Delete@Smiley I too feel pity for Oedipus.. some would argue that the truth was in front of him all along, however sometimes intense emotions blur your vision. If Oedipus truly knew that he was the one to kill the king then I do not think that he would have worked so hard to find the murderer when it would have just lead the answer to him.
DeleteI’m not entirely clear what you are trying to say for The Ditchdigger's Daughters. I can understand if you are arguing that it’s a tragedy because the parents are trying to live their lives through their daughters. But I don’t think that's what you are trying to say. What I think you are trying to say is that because the parents had a hard life they wanted to make sure their children did not have a hard life as well. Not making this a tragic story because they all became doctors and made a better life for themselves even though the children didn’t have a normal childhood.
DeleteI like how you brought up how Donald got mad at his wife when things started going downhill. I haven't seen this in any other posts, and it was honestly surprising for me as well when it happened. However, I don't understand how this fits in with the theme of tragedies. Is the tragedy that he sort of turned on his wife?
DeleteOedipus is being looked at as the “perfect” tragedy. I am comparing the “perfect” tragedy to the book Ditchidigger’s Daughters, which in my opinion is not a tragedy at all. There are aspects that are looked at to determine whether a piece of writing is a tragedy or not such as; high status, fall from status, loses everything, influenced decisions, etc. In Oedipus, he is the King and everyone praises him, but in Ditchidiggers, they are a poor black family who is constantly working to get money just so they can have the basic necessities. Oedipus is also being questioned about the killing of Laius (the old king of Thebes also towards the end found out to be the father of Oedipus). When it was proven that he was the murderer he no longer wanted to be in Thebes and begged Creon to get him out of there and bring him to Cithaeron. He had everything with being King of Thebes but eventually lost all respect from his people, the second messenger said “for he’ll cast himself, out of the land,” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 1289-1290) or when Oedipus said to Creon “I beg of you in God’s name hide me somewhere outside your country, yes, or kill me,” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 1410-1411) this was him sating that he could no longer be the king. While in Ditchidiggers, they cannot fall from a high status if they never had a high one. I personally think that they ended up getting a higher status with the Thornettes (the band) taking off and all of Donald’s daughters graduating high school, going to college, and all of the daughters getting careers. Also with both parents constantly working which in the book says “Your father works, I work.” (Thornton, 1995, p.37). Which when I think of high status they do not have to always be working, but they are just trying to make ends meet and trying to give their daughters a good life.
ReplyDelete(Continued) One similarity I noticed was the influenced decision aspect of a tragedy. Almost all of Oedipus’s decisions were made because an Oracle told him what was going to happen. When Oedipus’s people were falling ill he had to find out what was happening to them so he sent Creon to talk to a God and was told: “to drive out a pollution from our land” (Sophocles, 2010, line 98). Being told this Oedipus would not stop until he found out what the pollution was. Another example of Oedipus believing an Oracle was when he was talking to Teiresias and he was told: “I say you are the murderer of the king whose murderer you seek” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 360-361). When Oedipus was told this he went to everyone he could to prove if it was true. This is similar to Ditchidigger’s Daughters because Daddy (Donald) affected every decision his daughters made. They were only to study; no boys, friends, or parties. They were to only study and focus on education and when they did not do what Daddy said they would get in trouble or he would make them feel bad. There were multiple times in the book when it would talk about how Daddy controlled them, “If one of us started a sentence with, My girlfriend…. he would interrupt with “What girlfriend? You mean your sister?” (Thornton, 1995, p.56). Intending they could not have other friends because they had their sisters. Another time he influenced their decisions was when Donna and Jeannette wanted to go to a college called Howard University in Washington D.C and it was the only college they applied too but Daddy did not want them to go that far away from the family and the band so he went into Monmouth College to talk to the President of the university so his daughters could go there without applying (Thornton, 1995, p.90-93). When Daddy did this, the president allowed it and Donna and Jeanette ended up at Monmouth College because that is where Daddy wanted them. Finally, when one of the daughters would disappoint Donald he would make them feel awful for what they did. “You can help me pay two hundred and eighty-five dollars a month on the loan I took out for your tuition.” (Thornton, 1995, p.119), he said this to Donna when she said she was dropping out of college and offered to help pay for the other girls’ tuitions. In both stories, there are influenced decisions but even though Ditchidiggers Daughters has one aspect of a tragedy does not make it one.
Delete(Continued)Finally, another difference of why Oedipus is a tragedy and Ditchidiggers is not is because Oedipus has a fatal flaw and no one in Ditchidiggers does. Oedipus’s fatal flaw, in my opinion, is that he is very hostile and he had too much pride. Some examples of Oedipus being hostile was when Creon was trying to tell him the problem and because Oedipus did not like what he said so he called him a fake friend and that he was not loyal “Yes and it’s there you’ve proved yourself a false friend.” (Sophocles, 2010, line 584) and he said this because Creon would not tell him false information. Another time when he was hostile was when Teiresias was telling him that he was the problem he would argue and say rude things such as “Your life is one long night so that you cannot hurt me or any other who sees the light.” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 375-376) making fun of his blindness. In the quotes he also lets his pride be a big problem. Oedipus had so much pride when he was told he was the problem he could not believe him, the king, was the problem. At the end of the story he still had pride and tried to rule over Creon, “Do not seek to be master in everything, for the things you mastered did not follow throughout your life.” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 1521-1523). In Ditchidigger’s Daughters, I did not notice a fatal flaw, everyone really liked Donald and his girl. They were looked at as great people, well respected, people were always trying to help, and stick up for them. “Hello Mr.Thornton. How are you tonight? And even full of beer, they did not get up on the bandstand without his permission.” (Thornton, 1995, p.88). Another time someone showed Donald respect was after someone called him a nigger the other guy grabbed him and said “You son of a bitch If I hear you call anybody, ecspecially Mr.Thornton, other than his name, I’ll bash you in the mouth.” (Thornton, 2010, p.107). These are just a few of many times people showed Donald and his girls’ respect. In conclusion, even though pieces of writing may have some aspects of a tragedy does not make it one.
DeleteSome new things I learned was that Oedipus had internal conflicts. Looking back I can see how he was going against himself on whether or not he killed Laius. Another thing I learned is that even though Oedipus was the problem, he was the tragic hero and he did end up saving his people even though it cost him his thrown. Finally, I learned that after he left Thebes he was promised protection by Theseus but was unexpectedly killed and became the protector of the land Colonus. This is very surprising to me that anyone would want to protect someone who did something so awful to a land he called his own.
References
Lesser, S. (1967). Oedipus the King: The Two Dramas, the Two Conflicts. College English, 29(3), 175-197. doi:10.2307/374681
Oedipus the King. (1995). Merriam-Webster’s Encyclopedia of Literature, N.PAG. Retrieved from http://search.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=ip,cpid&custid=s6944278&db=lfh&AN=17216385&site=ehost-live&scope=site
Sophocles, (2010).Oedipus the king. The University of Chicago.
Yvonne, T. S. (1995) The Ditchdigger’s Daughters. Kensington Publishing Corp.
Oedipus the King displays a number of tragedy elements. One aspect of a Sophocles tragedy is someone holding a high status. Oedipus, who is the king, falls into this category. He is the main character and when a messenger brings news to him the messenger greets the chorus by saying, “Might I learn from you, sirs, where is the house of Oedipus?” (Sophocles, 2010, line 925). When someone is referred to by their house name it usually signifies that their house or family is important. In this case, Oedipus is very important since he is the king and is of a very high status. This kind of relates to a Shakespearian tragedy, Romeo and Juliet. Both characters are from high status and their families are referred to as the house of Montague and the house of Capulet throughout the play. Another tragedy element that Oedipus shows in the story is hubris. Hubris is basically stubborn pride. Oedipus basically lives his whole life with hubris. For example Oedipus tries to defy prophecies. One day Oedipus is told by a drunken man that he is a bastard. After hearing this Oedipus tries to flee to Pytho where he explains what he was told, “I was fated to lie with my mother, and show to daylight an accused breed which men would not endure, and I was doomed to be murderer of the father that begot me.” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 792-795). Then he storms back to Thebes and ends up killing his father at a crossroads, then takes the throne that his father held and lies with his mother, Jocasta. Oedipus would not believe these prophecies and his hubris ended up causing them to happen. His pride and denial of the truth ultimately made the prophecies the truth. This can be seen in real life with kings and dictators truly believing they are above the law. In addition Oedipus the King ends in a catastrophe. Everything comes to a close at the end of the play when things unravel. Once again a messenger brings news to the chorus; “Shortest to hear and tell- our glorious queen Jocasta’s dead.” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 1235-1236). Jocasta took her life due to the guilt she felt. This really proves that all the prophecies and rumors about Oedipus were true and he even starts to realize it. He begins to blame himself at the end of the play and this shows some recognition which is another tragedy element.
ReplyDeleteIn contrast, The Ditchdigger’s Daughters is not much of a tragedy story. The Thorntons are very far from high status. When it came time to put food on the table, the father, Donald would buy bargain chicken and meat. “‘So long as they make food,’ he used to say, ‘they’ll make expensive cuts and what’s left’ll be cheap, and I can make the cheap cuts taste just as good as the expensive.’” (Thornton, 1995, pg. 40). The Thornton family lived off of bargain food while their father worked weekend jobs and overnight shifts, skipping church. Not to mention that Donald had to take out loans just to finish building his house. This is quite the opposite from that high status that Oedipus sat on. Another typical aspect of a Greek tragedy is the loss of everything, when the character goes from having everything to nothing. In The Ditchdigger’s Daughters, the opposite happens. Donald raises his five African American daughters to do right and strive for their best in life. He had plans of all five daughters becoming doctors. But Yvonne, the teller of the story really ended up becoming the most successful. After her older sister dropped out of college, Yvonne and her sisters were motivated to complete school. Yvonne actually entered medical school and became a gynecologist. Living with a ditch digger as a father and a day working mother, Yvonne came from nearly nothing to graduate medical school. She recounts her parents’ happiness on that day, “Mommy, beaming but bemused as though she couldn’t quite believe this moment had arrived, radiated happiness, while Daddy’s chest was so puffed with pride that I teased him that he was going to have to go through doors sideways.” (Thornton, 1995, pg. 167). This is quite different from a tragedy where the main character might start the story with everything and lose it all by the end. Although this story is very far from a tragedy, it does have some elements of tragedy. For example, the main characters in tragedies usually have influenced decisions by someone or something like Gods. All five of Donald’s daughters are influenced heavily by him. When Yvonne complains to him about prejudice in school Donald tells her, “That’s why I’m tellin’ you, you got to get smart” (Thornton, 1995, pg. 34). He goes on to explain to her that she will not get above this stereotype unless she is educated. Yvonne listens to her father and ends up becoming a doctor. The Thornton’s story does have a little bit of tragic elements but is definitely not considered a tragedy like Oedipus the King.
DeleteIn the database research I found that Oedipus the King was rewritten and interpreted in multiple cultures besides Greek. One man, by the name of Tawfīq Al-Hakīm tried to rewrite the play so that it related more to Islamic beliefs. His perception of the tragedy, written by Sophocles, uses ideas from both Greek and Egyptian mythology (Summer, 2012, pg. 176). “Like the Greeks, although his understanding of fate is different, Al-Hakîm believes that man is not alone in this universe and, in many cases, cannot comprehend the forces of fate that control the course of action he takes.” (Summer, 202, pg. 176). This means that Oedipus did not understand the prophecies that were said to him in the Arabic version. Oedipus the King is viewed as the perfect tragedy and that’s why it has been rewritten in so many cultures, including France. Thus the reason this tragedy is still being read and referred to today.
Database research: http://eds.a.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid=25&sid=cf5b572f-420e-4328-b9bb-038e8d8240d6%40sessionmgr4006
Sophocles, & Greene, D. (2010). Oedipus Rex: (Oedipus the king). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.
Thornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J. (1995). The ditchdiggers daughters: a black familys astonishing success story. New York: Dafina.
I agree with you. Oedipus was king and that was a very high status. he eventually found out the truth and that he was not royalty at all. This makes Oedipus a great example of a tragedy.
DeleteI agree with your statement that Ditchdigger's is not a tragedy. It has some aspects but for the most part it is the opposite for most aspects.
DeleteI agree that Oedipus has a number of tragic elements especially right from the start. I can also agree that the Ditchdigger's Daughters is not technically a tragedy but it does display a number of tragic elements. The ending and messages of both stories are completely different but both good none the less.
DeleteI agree with you that Oedipus shows tragic elements. Maybe you could have added that it is for sure a tragedy to make your point more clear, but otherwise good examples. I really like how you compared the house of Oedipus and the house of Montague/Capulet. I also like your database research, very interesting how people tried rewriting it with their different beliefs.
DeleteI agree with your points about both Oedipus The King and Ditchdigger's Daughters. Oedipus is a tragedy without a doubt, while DItchdigger's is more of a success story. I also firmly enjoyed the information you uncovered about Sophocles and his works. The fact that his plays are so old have been rewritten in so many languages is astounding.
DeleteBooks come in many different sizes, with each having its own story. These stories are all unique, some ending in bliss and others in utter devastation. Two books, each coming from the other side of the spectrum, are Oedipus, a tragedy among tragedies, and The Ditchdigger's Daughters, which is not a tragedy. These books are both, in there own ways, wonderful, even with them being so different.
ReplyDeleteOedipus is a story of a king who loses everything by running away from fate. One element witnessed in the story is a fall. As best said by Jenny Diski, “Tragedy requires a fall, and a fall from a high elevation and great fortune makes the tragedy all the more pronounced and delectable to onlookers” (Diski, n.d.). A fall from any sort of power is easily identifiable and recognizable to the reader. The fall is not the only element present that makes this story such an excellent tragedy. There is reversal and catastrophe. Reversal is when the world turns on the protagonist, when what he or she expects is the opposite of what actually happens. This is seen when the Strophe says, “But now whose tale is more miserable? Who is there lives with a saveger fate? Whose troubles so reverse his life as his” (Sophocles, line 1204-1206, 2010)?
In this quote they speak in a way showing how, rather than anyone else, he is now the one miserable. They literally use the word reverse to speak of his predicament that is set near the end of the story. Oedipus lives a tragic life.
The Ditchdigger’s Daughters, a story of a poor, African American family that climbs its way to success. It is already clear that this story is not a tragedy. There is no fall from any sort of power. The characters are already in a bad situation to start with. Points proving their terrible situation are, “Daddy was fourteen and in the tenth grade when he dropped out of school in 1939” (Thornton, 2008, p.5) and, “Mommy was also at the Theresa hotel, working as a chambermaid” (Thornton, 2008, p.6). This shows what kinds of situations the parents of the family are in. They are poor with cheap jobs. As stated by the article, Power and Potential, “All of Thornton's sisters became accomplished professionals as well, and the success is continuing with their children” (Power and Potential, n.d.). This shows the outcome of this true story and how it is about fighting the odds. It is clear, summery alone, that this story is no tragedy.
The Ditchdigger’s Daughters and Oedipus may be completely different in themes but that does not make one better than the other. It is clear from the fall and other elements that Oedipus is a tragedy while The Ditchdigger’s Daughters has none of the elements meaning that it is not a tragedy. Even with both stories having such different points of view on circumstances and events, each uses its components excellently and excels at being a story.
References:
Diski, J. (n.d.). A great fall. By: Diski, Jenny, New Statesman, 13647431, , Vol. 141, Issue 5125. Retrieved October 23, 2019, from http://eds.b.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/detail/detail?vid=0&sid=badbced9-feda-4985-872f-c9f7e0e8918d@pdc-v-sessmgr01&bdata=JkF1dGhUeXBlPWlwLGNwaWQmY3VzdGlkPXM2OTQ0Mjc4JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#AN=82035043&db=lfh.
Sophocles, Grene, D., & Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus the King. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Thornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J. (2008). The ditchdiggers daughters: a black familys astonishing success story. New York: Dafina.
Power and Potential. (n.d.). Retrieved October 23, 2019, from http://eds.a.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/detail/detail?vid=7&sid=3f2c878d-7732-46a0-a4a1-6c4eaac75309@sessionmgr4008&bdata=JkF1dGhUeXBlPWlwLGNwaWQmY3VzdGlkPXM2OTQ0Mjc4JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#AN=3901352&db=lfh.
I agree with your statement on Oedipus. Oedipus Rex is a complete tragedy, even from the beginning it had a bad vibe to it. I also agree that The Ditchdigger's Daughters is not actually a tragedy, though it does contain tragic elements in it. For example, Donald had influenced decisions with his daughters seeing as he made sure they got a good education so they would not need to depend on anyone except themselves.
Delete@Travis Scoot, I actually believe that there was some sort of a fall from power. In the beginning of the book it explains the life of Tass, it goes onto say that she almost became a teacher and then could not afford to pay for her last year of college and was forced to drop out. "Tass was directed to come up with the tuition or leave school." (pg.8) She was almost a teacher and lost everything she had ever worked for in a blink of an eye.
DeleteI am reading The Ditchdigger’s Daughters by Yvonne Thornton and this book is not a tragedy. Yvonne’s family is very poor and it was hard for them to make a living. Donald is the father of five girls. He built a house where it was close to a school so that his kids could get a good education. Donald and his wife were always working and the kids never had to help around the house because their parents wanted them to focus on their school work and not have to worry about anything else. One day after school Janette came home and she had a C on a test and her mother was outraged. She woke Janette up at 6 am the next morning and made her wash the whole kitchen until it was perfect. “Your father works. I work. The job you children have is to study. As long as you work at your job as hard as your father and I do at ours, we’ll take care of the house. We’ll do the cooking and the washing up and the cleaning. But if you don’t do your job, if you fool around or get lazy, then you’ll do the housework because that’s what you’ll be doing the rest of your life.” (Thornton, 1955, p.37). Their parents pushed all of the kids to become doctors. It was hard for the kids because everything was not handed to them like other children. They had to work very hard to make a living. Yvonne’s parents were always working. Her father was working multiple just to feed his family and if they wanted something new he had to sell souvenirs so that he would have enough money to buy them. “I’ve got five little girls and I’m tryin’ to do good by them. The oldest one, she’s learnin’ to play the saxophone, and my next, she’s beggin’ me to get her a guitar. Now, what do you think, can I get a bit of money for these here souvenirs?” (Thornton, 1955, p.32). This is not an example of a tragedy because the main characters did not fall from their status. The kids eventually moved to a higher status because their parents were always pushing them to succeed. Yvonne came home from school one afternoon really excited. “Daddy, I got an A.” “That’s good, Cookie.” “That’s all you’re gonna say, Daddy?” “Well there’s A+, isn’t there?” A while later Yvonne came home with an A+. “Very good, honey. Now get A++.” (Thornton, 1955, p.57). He was always pushing his children to do the best so that they can grow up and become doctors.
ReplyDeleteUnlike in The Ditchdigger’s Daughters, Oedipus by David Grene is a tragedy because there are several things that go wrong. Oedipus is the king and he eventually falls from his high status. The play starts off with a bad omen and when all of his people dying and Oedipus not doing anything to help them. He says “I know you are all sick, yet there is not one of you, sick though you are, that is as sick as I myself.” (Grene, 2010, lines 59-61). “I have given many tears to this, gone many ways wandering in thought, but as I thought I found only one remedy and that I took.” (Grene, 2010, lines 66-69). He had a chance to help his people but he was too greedy to save them and he wanted it for himself. There are several points in the play where Oedipus is caught off guard. He was told that his parents were not his real ones and that his wife was his mother. These are huge character flaws that Oedipus has. Teiresias tries to warn Oedipus of what he will find out later in life but he decides not to listen to him. “You have your eyes but see not where you are in sin, nor where you live, nor whom you live with. Do you know who your parents are? Unknowing you are an enemy to kith and kin in death, beneath the earth, and in this life.” (Grene, 2010, lines 413-417). After Teiresias informs Oedipus of this new information, Odeipus calls him a fool and does not believe him.”I am a fool then, as it seems to you but to the parents who have bread you, wise. (Grene, 2010, lines 435-436). “This day will show your birth and will destroy you.” Grene, 2010, (line 438). This is a huge character flaw and Oedipus is trying not to believe what Teiresias is telling him. Finally towards the end of the play, king Oedipus is finally finding out the truth about his family and his kingdom. “Standing a tower against death for my land: hence he was called my king and hence was honoured the highest of all honours; and hence he ruled in the great city of Thebes.” (Grene, 2010, lines 1199-1203). “O Oedipus, the famous prince for whom a great haven the same both as father and son sufficed for generation.” (Grene, 2010, lines 1207-1210). Oedipus just finds out that his wife is actually his mother and that his people are not thinking of him as a king anymore, this is considered a catastrophe.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the play Oedipus loses everything. Oedipus loses everything when his wife Jocasta kills herself because she was unhappy that Oedipus was her son. “That night long past which bred a child for us to send you to your death and leave a mother making children with her son? And then she groaned and cursed the bed in which she brought forth husband by her husband, children by her own child, an infamous double bond.” (Grene, 2010, lines 1247-1251). “There , there, we saw his wife hanging, the twisted rope around her neck. When he saw her, he cried out fearfully and cut the dangling noose.” (Grene, 2010, lines 1264-1266). Oedipus feels very bad for his two daughters. He explains to Creon that he does not want them to suffer because of his own actions. “But my two girls so sad and pitiful whose table never stood apart from mine, and everything I touched they always shared O Creon, have a thought for them!” (Grene, 2010, lines 1463-1466). He finally tells Creon that he wants to be brought to a mountain where his parents built his tomb. He finally has given up on everyone and everything in his life. “For me never let this my father’s city have me living a dweller in it. Leave me live in the mountains where Citheron is, that’s called my mountain, which my mother and my father while they were living would have made my tomb. So I may die there decree who sought indeed to kill me.” (Grene, 2010, lines 1451-1455). This play is a great example of a tragedy. Sophocles focused his plays on motivation. I agree that this play is motivational because there is a good lesson to learn from it. Oedipus was not a very good king because he was naive. He did not know who his real parents were and that cause chaos in the kingdom.
ReplyDeleteDatabase link: http://eds.a.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid=12&sid=98afe53d-126a-4127-86df-b14bcd498a0a%40sdc-v-sessmgr02
I completely agree with everything you have said about Oedipus. The play is a complete tragedy and has a plethora of tragic elements, that the list could continue to go on. Before reading your post, I never viewed this play as motivational. But, I can see where you are coming from. It teaches you a great lesson about how your actions have consequences.
DeleteI agree with your examples of Oedipus being a great tragedy story, it very much is. On the Ditchdiggers' Daughters side, I think there is some tragedy elements in the story. The book overall is very far from a tragedy but there are a couple elements of tragedy in the story.
DeleteI agree with you that Oedipus does lose everything his family, his kingdom, and most of all his pride. But I beg to differ though about Oedipus being a bad king. He may have been heavy tempered and hubris but so was a lot of leaders during the time period. I think Oedipus did what he thought was the best thing for his family and kingdom. Yes he was mean to Teiresias by saying," Not twice you shall say calumnies like this and stay unpunished." (Sophocles,2010,line 363) This is not unfamiliar for a king to threaten your life if you make him mad. Also in the end he does try to find the true killer even after he starts to realize it could be him. Finally at the end he banished himself and says," That you shall send me out to live away from Thebes." (Sophocles,2010,Line 1016) He also stabbed his own eyes out because he was so torn up about the death. Oedipus says," madness and stabbing pain and memory of evil deeds I have done!" (Sophocles,2010,Line 1316) I think some pity needs to be given to Oedipus because he is been doomed from the start. Nice Post!
DeleteI agree with your view on Oedipus as a tragedy. When you start with power and almost everything going your way, the dominos are just going to fall. I especially love when you are talking about the reversal. Tragic Irony that he went from being viewed as a demigod to an example of how to become hated by everyone.
DeleteI would agree with you that Ditch diggers is not a tragedy. however I think you could have given more examples as to why it was not one. You show many examples for Oedipus.
DeleteThe books, The Ditchdigger’s Daughters and Oedipus Rex both display leadership characteristics as well as tragic elements. First, The Ditchdigger’s Daughter has a plethora of elements that could place it in the tragedy genre though it may not seem so. In the beginning, not only is it apparent that Donald and his family are poor and have a very low status in society, it also starts out with a bad omen: “You kids are black,” Daddy sometimes said to us. “You’re dark-skinned and ugly.” (Thornton, P.3) Donald then goes on to explain how not only are they poor, they are also the minority which in turn would cause them to be treated differently than other people. “I’m not always gonna be around to look after you, and no man’s gonna come along and offer to take care of you because you ain’t light-skinned. That’s why you gotta be able to look after yourselves. And for that you gotta be smart.” (Thornton, Page 3 This quote from Donald Thornton also proves that because of these facts, he had influenced decisions to push his daughters to get a good education so that they would be able to go far in life and not have to depend on anyone. Throughout the story you find out about Yvonne’s grandma and how she takes in children of the system for her own and treats them terribly. This relates to isolating or ruining a characters relationships with people. On page 25, Yvonne talks about how her grandma took in one girl, Bobbie, who was severely handicapped: “She had cerebral palsy, and Nanna kept her in a sort of cage, or pen, because Bobbie had no control of her arms and legs, or her bodily functions.” The other foster child, Betty, would be forced to clean up after. The entire story causes the audience to feel an intense sense of emotion, the audience has a catharsis. The Ditchdigger’s Daughters may not be classified as a tragedy, but it has a number of tragic elements within it.
ReplyDeleteOedipus Rex is classified as a tragedy and rightfully so, it started right off the back with a bad omen. The play opens up by Oedipus walking in only to find his people in agony and pain. “King,you yourself have seen our city reeling like a wreck already; it can scarcely lift its prow out of depths, out of the bloody surf.” Creon cries to Oedipus on page 11, line 23. The play continues to get even worse the more it goes on. Oedipus is often described as such: “Oedipus is a tyrant who is not really a tyrant, a king who does not know he is king, a song, a father, husband and brother who is not merely a son, father, husband and brother: he is a guiltless criminal who committed, innocently, incest and patricide.” (Versényi, 1962) Towards the end of the play, Oedipus finds out that he indeed murdered the lost king, his father, which means he bedded his mother. At the beginning of the story, Oedipus had intense pride and a high social status. On page 13, line 59, when Oedipus sees his people sick and dying, he says, “I know you are all sick, yet there is not one of you, sick though you are, that is as sick as myself.” Once the truth finally comes out, Oedipus is disgusted. Oedipus is no longer a respected king. “O generations of men, how I count you as equal with those who live not at all.” page 64, line 1187 the chorus says to Oedipus. Oedipus’ relationships with everyone he knew has changed forever. Towards the end, after the truth is revealed, Jocasta is found hanging by Oedipus. In turn, with all the chaos in his life, Oedipus can no longer take it and decides to blind himself so he can no longer see the horrors of his doings. “Then, as she lay,poor woman, on the ground, what happened after, was terrible to see. He tore the brooches-- the gold chased brooches fastening her robe--away from her and lifting them up high dashed them on his own eyeballs,” Page 66, line 1265-1270. Hearing this causes the audience to feel deep emotion.
Versényi, L. (1962). Oedipus: Tragedy of Self-Knowledge. Arion: A Journal of Humanities and the Classics, 1(3), 20-30. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/20162791
Deletethat link is from me oops
DeleteI completely agree with your blog. Ditchdigger's Daughters does show tragic elements and you gave good examples to prove that. Maybe you could add what makes it NOT a tragedy to show the other side, because I wouldn't say it is a tragedy. I also like how you added how the audience feels and what causes that!
DeleteThe University of Chicago. (2010). Sophocles: Oedipus The King.
DeleteThornton, Y. S. (1995). The Ditchdigger's Daughters. New York, NY: Kensington Publishing
Corp.
I would agree that Ditch diggers does show some elements of a tragedy, but I do not believe it is a tragedy. Nothing traumatic happens throughout the book.
DeleteOedipus The King by Sophocles is a great example of a tragedy. My first example is the main character Oedipus is of high social status, King of Thebes and born of royal blood. But swiftly tossed away because of prophecy. Leading to my second reason, prophecy. Many tragedies include prophecy. Such as in Macbeth there is a prophecy given by three witches that states Macbeth will be a thane, Macbeth will be king, and Banquo's sons will be kings. In Oedipus the King the prophecy is Laius will be killed by his son, Oedipus will marry his mother, and Oedipus will go blind. These all come to pass despite his parents attempts to prevent it. “and it told him that it was fate that he should die a victim by the hand of his own son, a son to be born of laius and me.“ (Sophocles, 2010, lines 712-714.) The last example is a reversal. This occurs in Oedipus The King when Oedipus learns he is the son of Laius and has married his mother. He comes to the conclusion that the prophecy has come true and his entire life is a lie. He fears for his daughters not being able to marry because they were born of incest. “ And when you're ripe for marriage, who will he be, the man who’ll risk such infamy as shall cling to my children.” (Sophocles, 2010, lines 1493-1495)
ReplyDeleteThe exact opposite is displayed in Ditchdigger’s Daughters by Yvonne S. Thornton, M.D. The Thornton family was poor, and of the wrong skin color to be expected to succeed in the time they were born. So not exactly of high class status like Oedipus was. “But as soon as the fare and a little something extra jingled in Daddys pocket, he was back on the New York bus.”(Thornton, 1995, page 6.) There is no prophecy foretold in Ditchdigger’s Daughters. The father and his children worked for everything they had, there was no god setting their future up for success. The five children were taught to work for what they wanted. Nothing was destined and nothing was meant to be..”Don't you always tell us to go for the top.” (Thornton, 1995, page 84) Finally, this story includes no catastrophe, no terrible ending. The ending is exactly what you would want it to be. All of the children might not have ended up as doctors like their father wanted, but for the most part they all go on to lead successful lives. “I decided that Daddy was right: there is nothing women can’t do, up to and including wherever it takes to get the job done.” (Thornton, 1995, page 227).
In database research I discovered much about Sophocles. Born in 406 B.C. he was full of many great qualities, such a wealth, genius, and charm. Not only was he an author, but also a priest and a general. However as an author he is most well known, and rightfully so. He wrote many famous plays, like Oedipus The King, Antigone, and Tereus. Those are just 3 of the 123 dramas that he composed. He changed the game when it comes to writing dramas. He increased chorus size and began screen painting. I have learned Sophocles was a brilliant artist and an impressive man, whos works have lasted thousands of years.
Resources
Database
Sophocles. Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th Edition. May 2019:1. http://search.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=ip,cpid&custid=s6944278&db=lfh&AN=134495414&site=ehost-live&scope=site. Accessed October 23, 2019.
Sophocles, & Greene, D. (2010). Oedipus Rex: (Oedipus the king.) Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.
Thornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J (1995). The Ditchdigger’s Daughters: a black famlys astonishing success story. New York: Dafina
@Bryce I agree with your view point on Oedipus and I like how you included the idea of a reversal. The play definitely takes an unexpected turn for the worst for Oedipus. I also think a big part of the reversal was how at the beginning of the play he resented everyone but towards the end realizes that he, himself is his own worst enemy.
DeleteA perfect example of a tragedy is the play we read, Oedipus. Oedipus Rex displays many tragic elements all throughout the play. Oedipus makes rash decisions, that he thinks will only help him. I would say this is considered a tragic element, such as a fatal flaw. Oedipus' fatal flaw is his stubborn pride. For example, Oedipus wants to find out more about his ancestry yet Jocasta is trying to persuade him no to, “I beg you-do not hunt this out- I beg you, if you any care for your own life” (Sophocles, 2010, line 1060). With Oedipus being the stubborn king he is, he says, “I will not be persuaded to let be the chance of finding out the whole thing clearly” (Sophocles, 2010, line 1065) and went on his way. Oedipus didn’t care what anyone had to say because he was too full of pride and didn't think anything could go wrong. Skipping towards the end of the play, more tragic elements occur. Oedipus falls from high status and ends up having recognition. He revealed that Jocasta is his biological mother and that he killed his father. “Now I am godless and child of impurity, begetter in the same seed that created my wretched self. If there is any ill worse than ill, that is the lot of Oedipis” (Sophocles, 2010, line 1360). Being from a family of incest, who would want him as their king? All of this leads to another tragic element, losing everything. Oedipus found his wife/mother dead, gouged his own eyeballs out, and wasn’t even allowed to talk and say goodbye to his two daughters. By this time in the play, I would say Oedipus’ only thing to “look” forward to is death itself, the perfect tragic element.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that Oedipus Rex is a perfect example of a tragedy. He has the status, the intelligence, and pride. The perfect set up for a great tragedy. My only complaint is you could have used tragic irony as an example.(nice pun)
DeleteI completely agree with your statement on Oedipus. The play is a tragedy right from the start. He has hubris which is where that intense sense of pride stems from. I agree he is very selfish though at the same time I do feel for him because he had no idea he was the one they were truly looking for the entire play, he simply wanted to find the truth.
DeleteUnknown again is me whoops
DeleteAs you mentioned if we look at what Jocasta said do you think that maybe that she could have known or had an idea that Oedipus is her son. Why would she not want Oedipus to know the truth and save the kingdom?
DeleteI liked the way you structured your paragraph and I definitely agree with you when you talk about his fatal flaw.
DeleteOn the contrary, The Ditchdigger’s Daughters is not a tragedy, although it may have a few tragic elements. Daddy Donald had six daughters whom he had big hopes and dreams for. He wanted all of them to be doctors and made them focus mainly on their education. This could be considered a tragic element, influenced decisions. Daddy Donald ended up buying the girls instruments once they were old enough to learn and they ended up being really good at it. They played together and called themselves the Thornton Sisters. The sisters started playing publicly and people really liked them. They ended up getting second place in the Ted Mack show. The girls were all excited, “This was show biz! We were in it!” Daddy quickly replies, “No, you’re not. Come Monday morning you’re back in school. You still got to do your studyin’.” (Thornton, 1995, pg.67) Although the girls were clearly passionate about their music, Daddy made them care about schooling first before anything else, which could be considered a tragic element. Another example of a tragic element is social status. They were very very poor with Daddy Donald working many jobs just to have money to feed the family. He never would pass up an odd job or anything that could make him some extra money. It wasn’t all that easy for Donald to make money or receive special loans though, and it may be because of the color of his skin. In the beginning of the book he tells the girls, “You kids are black. You’re dark skinned and ugly.” (Thornton, 1995, pg.3) He is implying that the kids aren’t going to have a high social status on their own, they need to be smart, they need to be doctors in order to be successful and admired. Daddy Donald was strict to the girls, which lead to some tragic elements, but he only wanted what was best for them.
ReplyDeleteIn the database research I discovered, Sophocles was fascinated with music and was deeply involved in his plays. He appeared in two of his own plays, and was “keenly interested in the practice of theater and the effective functioning of music as an expressive element in his dramas.” Sophocles was very talented and it didn’t go unnoticed. “Aristotle selected Sophocles as the poet who designed his plays most tightly, especially in structuring plot.” Aristotle also liked how Sophocles handled the work of the chorus. He fully integrated the chorus into the text by judging the roles, and focused on the presentation of a dramatic unity. Sophocles brought music and dance into the playwrights to seek maximum unity. I thought it was pretty interesting that Sophocles had such passion for his plays and music.
Research and citations:
Scott, W. (1996). Musical Design in Sophocles' "Oedipus Tyrannus". Arion: A Journal of Humanities
and the Classics, 4(1), 33-44. Retrieved from
http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/20163599
The University of Chicago. (2010). Sophocles: Oedipus The King.
Thornton, Y. S. (1995). The Ditchdigger's Daughters. New York, NY: Kensington Publishing
Corp.
I agree that The Ditchdigger's Daughters does contain tragic elements though it is not technically a tragedy. The family comes from a low status, has influenced decisions and a couple more tragic elements featured throughout the story. I like the facts you gave about Sophocles, I would have never guessed!
DeleteYour first few sentences are contradictory, you say Ditchdiggers is not a tragedy, but has tragic elements? I think you should choose one side.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteTragedy isn't in every book. While Oedipus Rex contains tragedy, The Ditchdigger's Daughters does not.
ReplyDeleteIn Oedipus we have destiny. In destiny we have predetermined events made by a higher power. Oedipus’s destiny was to kill his father and hook up with his mom. Something none of us want to ever happen. So you can imagine why Oedipus wanted to change his destiny.
Next we have the fall of power. Oedipus was viewed as a demigod. He solved the riddle of the Sphinx, he was a child of wealthy parents, and he lead his people to rebuild the city after it was left in ruins. So when Oedipus was found to have killed his father and have children with his mother, people started to think of him differently. Oedipus went from having the coolest house with an amazing view to living in the dirt, on a mountain, blind.
Finally we have Irony. Irony plays an important role in Oedipus. Oedipus ran away from his father because he did not want to become buddy buddy with his mother, but his father wasn't his father. Oedipus talked about how he will ask whoever is causing the curse on his land to leave, not knowing he was talking about himself. Marrying a woman who he loves dearly, only to find out that was his mother. Irony is what runs Oedipus Rex.
So why isn’t The Ditchdigger's Daughters a tragedy? Well it’s because it isn't. The Ditchdigger's Daughters has no tragedy elements because it isn't a story about tragedy. The Ditchdigger's Daughters is a story about hard work and dedication.
The Ditchdigger's Daughters is about a story of a father who has a dream of all five of his daughters becoming doctors. He worked two full time jobs with odd jobs on the weekend. Throughout the story we see how all of the daughters studied and put in the work to become doctors, ending with this important line. “Thank you mommy and daddy. We would have been nothing and done nothing without you. And it will not stop us. Our children’s lives, too, and the lives of all the people we touch will be immeasurably different because we are the ditchdigger's daughters.” (page 259). This is a success story about the daughters of the Thornton family, not a tragedy.
Sources
Sophocles, & Greene, D. (2010). Oedipus Rex: (Oedipus the king). Chicago: The University of Chicago Press.
Thornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J. (2008). The Ditchdigger's Daughters: a
black families astonishing success story. New York: Dafina.
The information I have learned about Sophocles is that he outlived his younger rivel. When his rival Euripides died, Sophocles is said to have dressed up his dramatic chorus in mourning to show his respect for his fellow dramatist. Not only was Sophocles competitive, he had bad sportsmanship. (Also I’m pretty sure that Oedipus was named after his rival.)
Sophocles was also a holy man. Sophocles was said to be extremely religious. He serves as a priest to a minor god and once reported he saw Heracles in a dream. The next day Sophocles build a shrine for him.
Downey, Ed. (2017, August 1).Sophocles. Retrieved October 23, 2019, from http://eds.a.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/eds/detail/detail?vid=100&sid=d5297815-7332-410c-86e9-5967bb1c01ef@sessionmgr102&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ==#AN=19632671&db=khh.
@Anonymous I see why you are saying that Ditchdigger's Daughters is not a tragedy however how can you say that it does not contain any tragedy elements ? A damaged relationship is a tragedy element and that certainly happens throughout the book. In the middle of the book Donalds and Jeanettes relationship starts to deteriorate after she starts to defy her fathers strict rules. Donald says to Jeanette "You think the band can't go on without you? One monkey don't stop the show!" (pg.127) it then says "And then she went, out of the front door and out of our lives for months to come." (pg.127) Donald almost lost his daughter forever and he was lucky that she started to come around again.
DeleteOedipus Rex from the play, Oedipus: The King, written by Sophocles, was originally based on Greek gods choosing the main character’s fate. That basic concept runs throughout all of his plays because of his beliefs regarding Polytheistic religions. Towards the end of the play, Oedipus ends up realizing he killed his dad Laius (Which was the previous King of Thebes) and had multiple kids with his mom Jocasta (Which was his wife too). Regardless of what happened in the end of the play, let me tell you about the actual play itself elaborate on Sophocles’s ideas of tragic elements. To start it off, just a few concepts that I personally saw in the play were agons, a prologue, self recognition, reversals. Some examples of agons were when the chorus talked about Oedipus and his unfortunate fate. On the line 1194, the Strophe says, “Oedipus, you and your fate!” (Grene, 1942). Before the play even started, it had a prologue that talked about Oedipus and his life as a child growing up into his older ages. Getting to the end of the play, Oedipus recognizes his indirect wrong doings in his past and notices that everyone was right about him. He goes on a massive rant about how he cannot get over his life decisions. He then proceeds to say “This is a terrible sight to see! I never found a worse! Poor wretch, what madness came upon you!” (Grene, 1942, 1298-1300). His hubris created a lot of unintended controversy and opened up room for error in his decision making.. Lastly, at the end of the play, there is a major reversal that plays a huge roll in the plot. In the early parts of the play, he is convinced that either Teiresias or Creon killed the king. As the play gets to its ending, the audience comes to find out that it was he who killed the king.
ReplyDeleteIn the book, The Quiet Room, by Lori Schiller and Amanda Bennett, one could say tragedies were brought to a higher standard because of all the character flaws. The main character, Lori Schiller, is a female diagnosed with schizophrenia. Some concepts I noticed were catharsis, universality, and catastrophe. If you do not know what catharsis means, then I will tell you. It means a huge sense of relief or realization that can change your life. In the early stages of the book, Lori has a voice in her head saying horrible things to her. This includes name calling and suggestion of violent actions. Excuse the language but her voices say “You must die you bitch, die! Die! Die!” (Schiller, 1977, pg. 21). Another idea was universality which means the book appeals to everybody no matter the age or time. The book could be somewhat relatable when anxiety and depression is spoken about. There are also some very graphic and vivid visions the story will give you that I refuse to speak about publically. Many people, no matter what age or lifestyle will have some form of mental health issue, even if it is miniscule. This book helps give hope for the population that reads this story. Lastly, there is catastrophe. As Lori tries to fight the voices, they get stronger and eventually she gives up. Her mind began to tell her that she could fly. Lori then decides to listen to her voices and attempts to jump out of her window. Here is a piece of the record held by a nurse at the hospital she was brought to. “Lori is having frequent auditory hallucinations, including voices screaming at her, command hallucinations telling her to go out the window and''fly.”.” (New York Hospital, 1982, pg. 74).
Resources-http://eds.b.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/detail/detail?vid=6&sid=91e11d61-a41c-40c7-af1f-bcaa13d6ee1e%40pdc-v-sessmgr05&bdata=JkF1dGhUeXBlPWlwLGNwaWQmY3VzdGlkPXM2OTQ0Mjc4JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#AN=134495414&db=lfh
I agree that The Quiet Room is mostly catharsis, it's tricky because the parents Marvin and Nancy beleive Lori won't attempt suicide again after she comes out of the hospital for the first time. So they are very relieved, and they believe they see a change in her future but they are wrong because little did they know Lori was hiding stuff from them. Lori did get a job and make "friends" from work, and from the big picture it did look good,she looked like she was on the road back to normal from her parents view. But then later to find out she was hooked on cocaine and her "friends" from work were her suppliers, and she was hiding the voices from her parents. And eventually again tried to kill herself and was back in the hospital, right where they started. So from her parents view, at some points in the book it is catharsis. But it's more of a reversal the book keeps going in an up and down wave, switching from good to bad. She's in the hospital, then out and then back in and you never really know when to feel happy or upset about it because it's constantly reversing.
DeleteI really like how you incorporated the public world into your statement by saying it gives people hope. You could argue Isolation to even Nancy when she would repeat the same routine every day. She would go to work, go get flowers, go to the hospital, sit with Lori, go home, go to bed, and do it all over again the next day. There is not only isolation to Lori, but her mom as well.
DeleteThank you for all the positive feedback guys, I really appreciate it!
DeleteI really liked your examples of why Oedipus The King is a tragedy. Reversal is one of my favorites and most obvious, which is why I used it too. When talking about prophecy it is cool how you talked about Sophocles other plays, and how in most of his works there is a prophecy or god included.
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