What is a tragedy? How does Oedipus as a tragedy compare to your book? To research about the upcoming film Schindler's List?
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*Answer the question/s and/or create your own argument about:
*Which example of literature has a tragedy that we as modern society can learn from?
*How have other writers/playwrights/screenwriters used Sophocles (and his work) to model future tragedies from?
*Is Oedipus (or any other main character) truly responsible for what has happened by the end of the play
*Your own argument
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Tragedy isn’t always just someone dying in a sense. Death can be a large part of tragedy although it is not the only thing that defines it. There are also many different types of tragedy, the Western idea of tragedy they may not differ in what is actually a tragedy and what just has a few tragic events (Steiner, 2004). As well said by Steiner, “All such definitions, moreover, tend to be variants on Aristotle's Poetics, a text which raises far more problems than it solves” (Steiner, 2004, p.2). This means that a tragedy is not just one tragic event, but a ton of problems presented in one text. These problems most likely will not be solved. Possibly only one or two of these problems are brought up in the main plot. This also is evident in Oedipus, a ton of different issues arrive at once, such as Oedipus marrying his mother and the oracles, but the plot seems to still focus on who killed king Laius. There are also many events in Oedipus that seem to be tragic, such as the son of the king getting his ankles pierced and getting thrown off a hill, though this is overlooked and all of the tragic elements have one focus of the king. In addition, the other issues are not addressed in an effective manner. Therefore a tragedy does not just have a few tragic elements such as death, but has many tragic events that are not solved in the text.
ReplyDeleteResources
Steiner, G. (2004). "Tragedy," Reconsidered. Retrieved October 23, 2018, from https://www-jstor-org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/20057818?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=tragedy&searchUri=/action/doBasicSearch?Query=tragedy&refreqid=search:420fee534f723e4fb39f21f10dde5add&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents.
This is Lilly by the way.
DeleteI agree with your statement that a tragedy only resolves one main problem, because in Oedipus almost none of the minor problems got solved, leaving the reader wondering what happened. What happened to the shepherd that was the only person to live where the three roads meet? What happened to Oedpius' ankles, and didn't he realized he had piercing marks on them, the same marks of the son of Lauis? The main thing the tragedy focus' on is how Oedipus killed King Lauis through the oracles, leaving out every other minor tragic thing that happened.
DeleteWhen one thinks of a tragedy, they think of something terrible happening like death or total destruction, this, however, isn't always the case. There are many elements of tragedy, specifically in Oedipus and The Quiet Room such as recognition and hubris. In both Oedipus and The Quest Room the protagonist recognize that the truth of the situation isn't what they previously thought. Oedipus, thinking he was going to kill his father, Polybus, ran away, only later to come to the recognition that Polybus wasn't his father, it was actually King Lauis. In the Quiet Room, Lori refuses to admit or believe that she has a mental illness. Toward the end of the text, she comes to recognize that the truth is that she does indeed have a mental illness and she needs treatment. Both texts also show the tragic element hubris. Oedipus is so full of stubborn pride that he doesn't believe Tiresias who is physically incapable of telling a lie because of his demi-godness. Likewise, Lori is full of so much stubborn pride that she refuses to go to a mental institution where she knows she will receive treatment that will boost her quality of life. Although both Oedipus and Lori probably know deep down that they are wrong, their hubris is so strong that it prevents any other thought than what they believe to surface. We as a modern society can learn from the Oedipus tragedy. We can learn to use our common sense to prevent things like incest from happening. If you look almost identical to your wife and your wife's dead husband, don't marry her and have children, it probably isn't a good idea. Neither Lori nor Oedipus are truly responsible for what happened to them at the end of their stories, events would have occurred regardless, but they still added tragic elements that could've been avoided by hubris (their stubborn pride) and having recognition to late to be helpful. One author described tragedy as "damage a damaged mind can do" (Padel, 1995). I agree with this because tragedies wouldn't get nearly as tragic as they get if the protagonist didn't add his damaged thoughts into the game to cause more trouble and drama.
ReplyDeletePadel, R. (1995) Whom gods destroy: elements of Greek and tragic madness. St. Norbert College Library. Retrieved from http://saintnorbertcollegelibrary.worldcat.org/title/whom-gods-destroy-elements-of-greek-and-tragic-madness/oclc/30701304&referer=brief_results
I agree with you that both of these stories are tragic. In both Oedipus and The Quiet Room the main characters are in denial of the main point of the story. Oedipus and Lori seem to be out of touch of the main idea of the story. Almost as if they don't fit in it, although they are the main characters. A tragic element in both of these stories is that the main characters don't recognize their flaws and it ends up hurting them in return. I also agree that they have damaged minds which doesn't allow them to see reality.
DeleteThis is Lilly
DeleteI also agree that both of these stories have tragic elements, especially denial of what is happening right in front of them. Oedipus did not want to believe King Laius was his father, causing him to lose sight of reality that caused more issues. Lori was in denial that something was wrong with her, especially because growing up she never really felt any of her illness. This caused her to hide her problems instead of dealing with them, which made her more ill in the long run.
DeleteI agree with the way you compared Oedipus and Lori. The way you compared them is probably the most accurate way you could compare such different personalities. Lori struggles to admit that she is sick for years, and Oedipus struggles to admit that he is wrong.
Delete#219 I believe that in the text Oedipus is a tragedy. If one was to show this as a story outside of the point of view for Oedipus the story wouldn't be nearly as tragic besides the death of the king. Further the death of the king would only be tragic to you unless you supported him as a ruler.
Delete"Sophocles creates a tragic universe in which man's heroic action, free and responsible, brings him sometimes through suffering to victory but more often to a fall which is both defeat and victory at once." (Knox, 1964, p. 6) Tragedies can have a mix of suffering and victory. Not only does the writing of Sophocles have this element, but future authors as well who were likely influenced by him. I believe that The Once and Future King is an example of one of these tragedies that mixes suffering along with victory. It is a tragedy because Arthur dies in the end, but it also has victory mixed in because he died a hero that drastically made his kingdom a much more just and charitable place. In the modern world we can learn from tragedies like this as they can serve as reminders that although we may go through struggles and hard times, in the end we can still ultimately have lived a victoriously influential life.
ReplyDeleteRescources
Knox, B. M. (1964). The Heroic Temper: Studies in Sophoclean Tragedy. Retrieved October 26, 2018, from https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=7tZh6wLwoXMC&oi=fnd&pg=PA2&dq=tragedies sophocles&ots=X4ulfOUM3x&sig=QjIkoBSfytrcGYaVs4Z9FXe01Lc#v=onepage&q=tragedies sophocles&f=false.
Would you really say that there is victory in tragedy if in the end the main point is that the character loses everything? Would you consider The Once and Future King a tragedy too? I feel as if he died as a hero he must have lived a full life. Arthur most likely was also known as a hero to others, in a tragedy I feel as though they would lose respect for him. Did he lose respect from the people? If he did not then could you really consider that a tragedy.
DeleteIn my opinion I think it is really a spectrum. In some cases I think some stories are almost completely tragic and other pieces of literature are not really considered tragedies even though they have some tragic elements. I do not think I would label The Once and Future King as a tragedy at all, however there are still a some tragic things that happen.
DeleteCaboose here, I must say that I do not think there can be a victory in a tragedy. You said Arthur dies which makes it a tragedy but everyone dies one day so I do not solely think you can call The Once and Future King a tragedy based on Arthur's death. Tragedies also contain a downfall which did not happen if he was victorious.
DeleteI know what you mean. Again, I would not call the Once and Future King as a whole a tragedy, but there certainly are still tragic elements in it. Also, there is more than just Arthur's death. Another tragic happening in it is how Queen Morgause hardly acknowledges her childern at all even though they try so hard to get her attention and affection. "Indeed they did love her. Perhaps we all give the best of our hearts uncritically-to those who hardly think about us in return." (White, 1939, p.219) Is the book as a whole tragic? No. But that to me, a mother not caring for and even at times being abusive towards her children, that I would call tragic.
DeleteTragedy and comedy seem to be related. In most stories humans are the main reason why things go wrong. Also humans can make things funny as well. There is a theory that both of these things are just related to human action. As said by Golden, “... tragedy and comedy, come into existence because of a fundamental intellectual impulse felt by all human beings” (Golden, 2005). Most of the time characters in tragedies are humans, even if they are fictional humans. These people either put this on themselves or indirectly hurt themselves. In “All My Sons” they are all human characters they are prone to the human condition which allows comedy and tragedy both to be present. There are funny parts and serious parts. This is shown in Aristotle’s work which is brought up by Leon Golden, he states that pity and emotion bring tragedy and comedy together as one. In most tragedies there is comic relief which helps make the viewer feel better for a moment before the real action comes.
ReplyDeleteResources
Golden, L. (2005). Aristotle Second Addition. Retrieved October 26, 2018, from https://litguide-press-jhu-edu.snc.idm.oclc.org/cgi-bin/view.cgi?eid=15&query=tragedy.
I agree that tragedy and comedy can be related at times. For example, in the book "Brave New World", when you think about the fact that everyone belongs to everyone else it seems funny at first, but when you think more on it you realize how messed up it it. The author really brings this out when the savage falls in love with Lenina. Their two completely different outlooks on relationships with people of the opposite sex causes issues with them understanding their feelings for each other.
Delete-Matthew Revord
I agree with you, in the Quiet Room there are some elements of comedy and humor even though there are more elements of irony and 'dark humor' in tradegies.
DeleteYes I agree that they are directly related. Shakespearean tragedy by definition includes comedy as an essential part of the work.
DeleteRafiq, M. (2018). Definition and Characteristics of Shakespearean Tragedy. [online] Owlcation. Available at: https://owlcation.com/humanities/Shakespearean-Tragedy-Definition-and-Characteristics-of-Shakespearean-Tragedy [Accessed 30 Oct. 2018].
@Matthew I agree with you and Mason both. I’d have to say that in “Brave New World”, the way that their society treats relationships (if you can even call them that anymore) is a tragedy in itself. The best of relationships aren’t just about the physical aspect, but more so about the emotional connection you create with someone and being there to support one another. In “Brave New World”, one of their mantras, everyone belongs to everyone, destroys the best part of relationships and forces everyone to become distant and introverted, in a way. By eliminating the emotional aspect of relationships, people are left to live their lives alone (no one will be there to support them in hard times) with no one to really love. Therein lies the real tragedy.
DeleteWhen thinking about tragedy, hero's come to mind. No tragedy would be a tragedy without the hero saving the day. Tragedies are terrible events; famine, disease, death and the overall art of losing, but they always have that element or character that brings some sense of joy or enlightenment for some period of time. Usually that period of time is short and destroyed in the end. But that element was still there. In Oedipus that joy would be his children/wife and his kingdom. Although he does loses all of those things at the end of the play, he still loves them. And his values show who he is as an individual. And he makes choices that are honorable. He is a hero, a tragic hero, but a hero nonetheless. He is imperfect because of how prideful he is. “ In moral life, individuals need to find strategies to deal with challenges they face both as individuals and as persons-in-relationships-with-others. The reactions portrayed in Oedipus make vivid not only the idea of character traits but also the role of virtue in moderating what we might do in situations that interact with our characters in potentially disastrous ways.” ( Gillet & Hankey, 2005) Throughout the Quiet Room, Lori loses herself. She loses her mind. At points her family could not recognize her. She is a hero to herself, and an inspiration to others. This story is also an example of tragedy, not because of the things that happened to Lori, but because of the life she never got to live due to her illness. Towards the end of the novel Lori says, “ My family marveled at how happy I was, despite the demands of work, life, and the business of staying away from drugs. I was really starting to find my place in the world. And just when they thought things were as good as they could get, something amazing happened.” (Schiller & Bennett, 1994, pg 273) In the end of her book she is happy, which is more than you can say Oedipus. Both examples of tragedy ended differently but had the same plot, Tragic character undergoes tragedy as the main point with ‘overcoming’ or ‘suffering defeat from’ as the cherry on top. Personally, I believe in fate. So the challenges that occured to both Lori and Oedipus were not their faults. They were things that were destined to happen. The choices they made after showed their true value; to be happy and prevail or let doom consume.
ReplyDeleteGillett, G., & Hankey, R. (2005). Oedipus the King: Temperament, Character, and Virtue. Philosophy & Literature, 29(2), 269–285. Retrieved from https://snc.idm.oclc.org/login?url=http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=ip,cpid&custid=s6944278&db=a9h&AN=19711566&site=ehost-live&scope=site
I disagree that Lori and Oedipus weren’t to blame for the tragic elements in their stories. Yes, some things are destined to happen, but the characters in these stories worsened their fate. Lori is to blame for how long she let her illness affect her and she is to blame for refusing to seek help. She prolonged the process of her getting better, and I think that’s the tragedy. Oedipus prolonged knowing the truth by not believing Tiresias and by not seeing what’s right in front of him because of his arrogance. Fate may be fate, but the characters can still make things worse by their own free will and poor judgement.
DeleteBoth were very confused and trying to hold on to what little bit of themselves they had left. But yet they did make it worse. But neither are the reason their entire tragic event happened.
DeleteI agree with Emma because they do play somewhat of a role in the blame. Both Oedipus and Lori do seem confused and holding on to the last bit of what they had, however they still made mistakes that later caused more problems in their lives. The way Oedipus acted in the play did not go unnoticed, especially the way he talked to Teiresias, who is a demigod. Teiresias can not tell a lie, and came to talk to Oedipus about the sickness that had come about his men. Oedipus became very angry when he started to hear things he did not want to hear. He told Teiresias about the truth that "it has no strength for you because you are blind in mind and ears as well as in your eyes" which was a huge insult to a demigod.(Grene, 2010, p.26) When things started to fall, it is clear that Oedipus' behavior had much to do with his own fate. As well as Lori, although it is difficult to tell people about those kinds of issues, getting better on your own can almost be impossible with the severity of problems she was having. So the fact that it worsened rapidly and her whole family was thrown off because they were clueless, shows that she should have seeked help while it was early in her illness. No one could have done anything since they did not know, making her responsible as hard as that may be to see.
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Delete@Andria- I agree with you. Lori did not know much about her illness. She was clueless of what was going on in her head. All she knew was that she had voices and she thought she had them under control. She did not think anything was completely wrong. Yeah she should have talked to someone and opened up, but you can not blame her for something she could not control.
DeleteLori #50- @ Andria- I disagree with you about Lori. Lori could have tried to tell someone about how she was feeling before it got to the point it did. Because she waited so long, Lori struggled to be able to stay out of the hospital. She had many visits to the hospital and it worsened when she could have tried to get help when it first begun. I do agree with what you said about Lori being a hero to herself though. She did eventually overcome all of this. Though this will always be with her, by the end of the book Lori said "I opened the door to the outside world all by myself, and left the hospital forever." (Schiller and Bennett, 1994, pg 255) Lori tried hard to turn her life around and she did. At the very end of the book Lori talks about how she walked back through the hospital doors she was a teacher and not a patient. She used what happened to her to help other and make a difference. I think that Lori going through all of this and overcoming everything and using it to help others is what makes her a tragic hero.
DeletePertaining to Lori, Mental illness runs in her family, so a genetic ailment is not her fault. And throughout the novel she states how confused she is and how she doesn't what is going on. Or if she is just insane. While in college she tried to assure herself that all people hear voices,that it was normal.
Delete#77- I don't agree that there is always a hero in a tragedy. If someone dies suddenly in an accident, there is no getting them back. Who would be the hero then? A therapist? No, maybe they might be able to help a person directly affected by the tragedy live day by day. I honestly think if there was a "hero", it may be time. Time doesn't heal all wounds, but it can definitely help.
DeleteI disagree that Lori and Oedipus weren’t to blame for the tragic elements in their stories. Yes, some things are destined to happen, but the characters in these stories worsened their fate. Lori is to blame for how long she let her illness affect her and she is to blame for refusing to seek help. She prolonged the process of her getting better, and I think that’s the tragedy. Oedipus prolonged knowing the truth by not believing Tiresias and by not seeing what’s right in front of him because of his arrogance. Fate may be fate, but the characters can still make things worse by their own free will and poor judgement.
ReplyDeleteLori #78 : I agree with you that Lori is to blame for how long she let her illness affect her and refusing to get help. But you also have to realize that when you have an illness, it takes a lot of someone to be able to own up to the problems they are having and being able to seek help. That is what is unfortunate. She made herself worse because of how long she went without talking to anyone about what was going on in her mind and body.
DeleteTragedy is, as defined by Aristotle, “... in the strict sense of the word as ‘the imitation of an action that is serious and also having magnitude, complete in itself; in language with pleasurable accessories, … in a dramatic, not in a narrative form; with incidents arousing pity and fear’ …”(Perricone, 2010). Tragedies use all kinds of emotion in order to create the desired atmosphere and mood for the characters to exist in. “Brave New World” and Oedipus both have tragic elements, however, the elements are different. Oedipus has external elements such as gods and the sickness to create the tragic environment, whereas Brave New World focuses on a tragic hero in John. Comparatively, Oedipus is full of hubris and ignorance, while John has a basic innocence to him that is taken advantage of by the new modern world after he is taken from the reservation where he grew up. The stress of his sudden celebrity status while at the same time adjusting to a world in which traditional values are gone, replaced by a world that John’s mental state is unable to cope with. John is not to blame for the decision he makes at the end of the book. Bernard’s choice to bring John and Linda back to civilization, which led to Linda’s accelerated death, is what broke John’s sanity leading to his decision. CHRISTOPHER PERRICONE. (2010). Tragedy: A Lesson in Survival. The Journal of Aesthetic Education, 44(1), 70-83. doi:10.5406/jaesteduc.44.1.0070
ReplyDeleteI'd agree that tragedy appeals to emotion in order to create the mood. In the play "All My Sons" by Arthur Miller, Joe Kellers son Chris, is shown a letter that his fiances Ann received from Larry(his deceased brother), a suicide note confessing that he knew about his father's crime and therefore won't go on living. The emotional peak of the play, this letter forces Joe to change his point of view. He admits, and understands his guilt. This scene create a very sad, moving moment to appeal to ones emotion in order to create a suspenseful mood.
DeleteThe culture shock on John was really sad to see. Like you mentioned, John had to see his own mother die because of all the drugs she was exposed to in the new world. When John was a kid, his mother talked about all the great things in the new world, "the lovely music that came out of a box, all the nice games you could play, and the delicious things you could eat and drink..." (Huxley, 2006, Pg. 128). He went with the thought of a perfect society but was met with a confusing world where drugs ran rampant, traditional families and religion were shunned, and love was dead. This lead to his actions at the end, and like you, I don't blame him.
DeleteLori #78 : Tragedy doesn't come only from death, but from things that happen in your everyday life. To something with an unhappy ending, to a natural disaster around you, tragedy comes in many forms. Usually when a tragedy occurs, you look to other people for help. In Oedipus and The Quiet Room, they both realize that in order for you to change, you have to face reality and what is actually going on. Like in the Quiet Room, Lori denied having a mental illness for a long time and that lead her to being in and out of the hospital, month after month. This is unfortunate because of the life she had to live while this happened. Because of her illness, it made her parents relationship start to go off the deep end, and made her brothers selfish. In Oedipus, he married his mother. This isn't your usual tragedy. The Schindler's List is truly a tragedy, and goes through parts of the holocaust. The holocaust was a tragic time where people suffered and lost lives. ¨Colloquial, idiomatic usage attaches ¨tragic¨ to experiences, mental or material, which range from triviality….Tragedy in reference to western literature is itself an elusive branch od tangled ramifications.¨
ReplyDeleteSteiner, G. (2004). "Tragedy," Reconsidered. New Literary History,35(1), 1-15. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/20057818
I agree that tragedy doesn't only shine in the form of death. However, I would like to bring to realization how powerful death is when included in tragedy compared to other tragic elements. In Brave New World, when John's mother dies, the tragedy of the situation isn't something that the other people understand because they don't have mothers. This is powerful because of the way he reacted to her death. He had an influx of emotion and went around in an outrage, which was incomprehensible by the others around. His outrage because of his mother's death, definitely stands out as a tragedy.
Delete-Matthew Revord
Caboose here, I have to agree that a tragedy does not only come from death because in "Brave New World" the Director suffers a tragedy when he loses his high status as the Director and is shamed by everyone.
DeleteI would agree that death isn't the only thing that makes a tragedy. In "All My Sons" by Arthur Miller, one of the biggest themes of this tragedy is the betrayal of Joe Keller and the bushiness rather than just the death of his son.
DeleteIn English class we are reading the play Sophocles Oedipus The King, and I personally am reading Brave New World. These two pieces are both tragedies. Tragedy according to http://definition.org/define/tragedy/ is, ¨A drama or literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances¨. The play Oedipus relates to Brave New World because they are both dystopian worlds, and they both have more focus on the higher castes of society. Oedipus is about a place over-run with sickness and death, Brave New World is about A world centered around Stability and the book talks a lot about different people made in people factories which is obviously not okay. In Brave New World the author brings out the tragic element of recognition. The savage was being harassed by Lenina and learned that the “Brave New World” was actually a pretty crappy place. In Oedipus the author brings out the element of reversal because Oedipus was searching everywhere for the person that killed the last king, only to find out that it was him! The story of Oedipus also shows tragedy when the author “used elements of ritual to guide perceptions of his fifth-century audience about plot and character” (Brook, A. 2018, Tragic rites : narrative and ritual in Sophoclean drama). http://saintnorbertcollegelibrary.worldcat.org/title/tragic-rites-narrative-and-ritual-in-sophoclean-drama/oclc/982448389&referer=brief_results
ReplyDeleteThis is Matthew Revord^^
DeleteLike I said in my comment before, many books that are popular today have a major downfall that occurs. Like you said, "Sophocles Oedipus the King" and "Brave New World" both have that major downfall. "Native Son" and "The Quiet Room" have that same downfall. In "Native Son", Bigger gets into serious trouble with the law that could ruin his life. In "The Quiet Room", Lori's mental state has the downfall and she ends up in the hospital fighting between the thoughts of ending her life and trying to survive. In the book "I am Malala", Malala also has that same downfall. She gets shot in the head and is fighting to get back to a normal life. She is even trying to make things better for other people, mostly women. From the definition that you have said it seems like you are trying to say that in a tragedy a person suffers from a horrific setback of some sort and they don't come up from that pit that they fell into. That is not true. In both "The Quiet Room" and "I am Malala" the main characters come back up from that major setback in their life.
DeleteBill Nye @ Matthew- Every tragedy has a tragic hero that comes and saves the day and I think that would be considered John "the savage". But every hero normally has a flaw that ends up being very bad. When their flaw is exposed is when the story really becomes a tragedy. In "Brave New World" John is from the reservation which he was placed there and does not really fit in there, like he was not included in the ritual, and once John went to confront the Director aka his father he became very popular. John did not really fit in even though he was popular and once he found out he realized the "New World" was not all the good he became very depressed and went into a very dark place, which made "Brave New World" a tragedy . So John's heroic flaw was he never really fit in no matter where he was.
DeleteBill Nye (the science guy)- An example of tragedy that we as a modern society can use to learn from would be “Brave New World” and in Oedipus. “Brave New World” is a tragedy because the son John was reunited with his father who perhaps to be the Director and once he called him father everyone laughed and the Director ran away in embarrassment. The Director then resigned because he was to ashamed being a father. The Director is a major character at this point and is forced to lose a lot when John comes in saying he is his father. Which I believe that our society can learn from this that we should never be ashamed of who we are and what people think about us. According to Billings, “Tragedy and philosophy share a concern with ends, in a double sense-the deaths of individuals and the goals of human striving.” (Billings, 2013). In Oedipus, King Laius was murdered and Oedipus tries to find out who the killer is but it is himself and that is very tragic because there is a death involved and he committed a murder and does not remember it. I think Oedipus is to blame for what has happened at the end of the play because in the end of the day he did kill his father who was King Laius, he had kids with his mother which neither of them realized and once they did she killed herself, and once he found out her gouged his eyes out and was exiled.
ReplyDeleteJoshua Billings. (2013). The Ends of Tragedy: Oedipus at Colonus and German Idealism. Arion: A Journal of Humanities and the Classics, 21(1), 113-131. doi:10.2307/arion.21.1.0113
I would have to disagree with The Director being the main character. John was turned away and shunned by his father. He was hoping to get to know him and hopefully build a life but was disowned. John was told that the new world was going to be this amazing place, but he found out what the world has really become, with family being looked down on. I feel like The Director was the start to John's downward spiral and the reason for what John in the end.
Delete#15 - I agree with you that Oedipus killing his father and not remembering it was a tragic event in the play. But I disagree that it was his fault because it seemed as though Jocasta knew that Oedipus is her son the whole time. As Jocasta and Oedipus are having a conversation about the shepherd taking Oedipus in after being given away, Jocasta states, "O Oedipus, God help you!God keep you from the knowledge of who you are!" (Grene, 2010, p. 57, line 1067-1068). She suddenly leaves the room, hinting that she may know about the truth.
DeleteTrevor Ray: In the story The Great Gatsby written by F. Scott Fitzgerald the tragedy is Jay Gatsby is blinded by his love for Daisy Buchanan which is the cause of his death and fall from the almighty and untouchable person he was. In the story Jay was looked at as a person above his peers. Acordding to Carla Mulford, Fitzgerald “... builds up an aura of nearly mythical significance around Gatsby” (Mulford, 1982, pg 211). Which is then taken down by Jays love for Daisy. His love is so deep that he says “I’m going to fix everything just the way it was before… She’ll see” (Fitzgerald, 1925, pg 110). He is so determined to get Daisy back he will do anything which is blinding him from what is right and his success. Which eventually leads to his tragedy, as Daisy hits and kills Myrtle in Jays car and Jay then takes the blame for it out of the love he has for Daisy. We can learn from this tragedy today by not letting one single dream or person ruin our lives. Just as Jays dream of the getting Daisy back ruined his life and got him killed. Mulford, C. (1982). Fitzgerald, Perkins, and "The Great Gatsby". The Journal of Narrative Technique, 12(3), 210-220. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/30225942
ReplyDeleteA situation kind of like Gatsby’s infatuation with Daisy is in “Brave New World” between John and Lenina. Since Lenina is part of the civilized world she believes in that everyone should be able to have each other whenever. However, John has read Shakespeare and wants Lenina to marry him. When Lenina tries to offer herself to him John freaks out and calls her a whore, but he can not shake the memory or his feelings for her. Near the end of the book John and Lenina see each other again, John’s reaction is not a good one and to avoid spoiling, it can just be said his reaction to what happened is not good.
Delete@Trevor Ray: I agree with you that The Great Gatsby is a tragedy, albeit a different style of one than we're used to. In most tragedies, the whole word seems dismal, but in The Great Gatsby everything is glamorous. I think that's what makes Gatsby's fall all the more tragic, because he had so much and lost it all. It's amazing how Jay's true love for Daisy is the thing that unraveled him in the end. The whole story goes to prove that not every tragedy needs to be full of death, but that it can have other elements that make it a tragedy, even though it does eventually end with Gatsby dying.
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ReplyDeleteCaboose here back to tell you what a tragedy is. According to Steiner, “The semantic field of the noun “tragedy” and of the adjective “tragic” remains as intermediate as its origin” but for my use I will narrow it down to tragedy is when the main character of a piece of literature has a downfall and ends with an unhappy ending. Oedipus compares to Brave New World because in Oedipus the king starts the book highly respected and has very high status. The king then continues to learn information about himself like how he killed his father and is now sleeping with his mother which eventually cause his downfall. In Brave New World the Director has one of the highest statuses possible and he loses it because a woman named Linda confronts him and tells him that they have a son together which is frowned upon in Brave New World. The downfall of these characters that were of high status is why Oedipus and Brave New World are similar. As a modern society we can learn from Oedipus because like Oedipus our society automatically thinks someone else is to blame just like the king thought it was someone else who killed Laius and it couldn’t be him. We must learn as a society that sometimes it yourself that caused the problem and not be so quick to blame others. The Director in Brave New World also was the one who caused his own downfall because if he didn’t leave Linda at the savage reservation, she would have never came back and confronted him.
ReplyDeleteSteiner, G. (2004). "Tragedy," Reconsidered. New Literary History,35(1), 1-15. Retrieved from
http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/20057818
https://www-jstor-org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/pdf/20057818.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3Ada548f60dc754b99baeb9c315f3ba8dc
Many books that we read or hear of today are written in the same way. There is typically a major downfall and an unhappy ending. In "Native Son", the main character, Bigger, starts off with a rough life. He ends up turning his life around and getting a good job and is trying to stay out of trouble. According to your definition, we both know that things went downhill from there. I'm not going to spoil anything that happened but he got in some serious trouble with the law and with the family he was working for. In a different story, "The Quiet Room", Lori was living life like normal when she started struggling. Again, her life went downhill too. She struggled to stay out of the hospital and she ended up in a metal facility. Not all tragedies end with an unhappy ending. After a long time of fighting her mental state to stay alive, Lori finally got the help she needed. She got saved. She is alive. Now that ending doesn't sound unhappy to me. Not all tragedies have to end unhappily. They do have a downfall and it is usually a severe one, but it doesn't have to end badly as well.
DeleteBill Nye @ Caboose- I think there are many more ways for a book to be considered a tragedy. But going off your definition of a tragedy I would have to agree with you in how "Brave New World" is considered a tragedy. But I think personally there is a bigger part in the book that exemplifies tragedy. I think John becomes a really big character in the book, which he becomes very popular and then his life goes down hill very fast. In the end John is so miserable he ends up taking his own life. So I think in "Brave New World" there are many tragic events that make it a tragedy.
DeleteLori #50- Many people believe that for a book or a poem to be a tragedy, it has to have death in it. A tragedy is "a serious drama typically describing a conflict between the protagonist and a superior force (as destiny) and having a disastrous conclusion that excites pity or terror." (Wiesbaden, 1959) There is tragedy in both "Oedipus" by Sophocles and "The Quiet Room" by Lori Schiller and Amanda Bennett, but both in different ways. According to the definition that I stated above, Oedipus has conflict with many people accusing them of being the killer of King Laius, but he really was the killer of his father. We find out in the play from one of the oracles that King Laius was to be killed by his son if he had one, and Oedipus is the son of King Laius and Jocasta. Oedipus blamed everyone for the death of King Laius when he really was the killer. In the Quiet Room, I feel that Lori is having conflict more so with herself. She has trouble admitting that she has a problem and she has trouble overcoming it. I believe that Lori's conflict is with the voices in her head and not with a different person in the book. Lori is fighting against the voices in her head to survive. A tragedy does not have to end with death or does not even have to have death in it. "Oedipus" and "The Quiet Room" are both tragedies, but they are very different tragedies.
ReplyDeleteKoelb, C. (1974). "Tragedy" as an Evaluative Term. Comparative Literature Studies, 11(1), 69-84. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/40468048
#27: I agree, death is not the complete factor of a tragedy. It often is assumed when you read/watch a tragedy some kind of death is bound to happen. In many tragedies we have all read so far, it seems to be a repeated issue of the main character is continually at battle with them self in some sort of way. This of course can be either physically or mentally done.
DeleteLori #78 : In The Quiet Room, I agree that this is a tragedy. Not only is she suffering, but she is also indirectly making the people suffer around her. Towards the beginning of the book, Lori's mom Nancy was telling us readers that her marriage was starting to get put on the back burner and how things were slowly starting to head downhill. So, I agree that she is fighting the voices and not another character in the book. This is a tragedy, but not the stereotypical type of tragedy.
DeleteLori #22 to Lori #50- In The Quiet Room, of course Lori being Diagnosed with Schizophrenia is a tragedy to the people around her. But what isn't a tragedy is at the end of the story Lori begins to live a normal life. I do not believe the quiet room is a tragedy, but I believe that the situation Lori was put into was a tragedy. A Tragedy in literature is normally ended with a person losing everything that they had prior, but what happened is that Lori began to live a normal life. Lori was 30 when she left the hospital to not return again, and that still leaves well over half of her life to live it to the fullest, without the tragedy of Schizophrenia affecting her every move, and that is why I do not agree that The Quiet Room is a tragedy.
DeleteA tragedy is often thought as death or a serious crime. In some cases this is true. Tragedy is usually revolved around human suffering and in literature, usually has a disastrous ending with the main character taking a major downfall. Oedipus is a tragedy because the main character comes to a major realization along with the audience as they read the play. The plot to begin with is also very tragic. The play opens with ciaos when the king is pointing fingers and blaming people for the deaths and illness in his city. “The literature of tragedy informs the “structure of feelings”...” (Roman, 2002, pg. 2). There are many different types of tragedies. “Tragedy in reference to western literature is itself an elusive branch of tangled ratifications.” (Steiner, 2004, pg. 1). Most tragedies that we read in school are Greek tragedies and sophocles. They are based around Greek religion.
ReplyDeleteResources
Román, D. (2002). Introduction: Tragedy. Theatre Journal, 54(1), 1-17. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/25069017
Steiner, G. (2004). "Tragedy," Reconsidered. New Literary History, 35(1), 1-15. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/20057818
Lori #50- I agree that Oedipus is a tragedy because he was blaming so many other people for being the killer of King Laius when he really was the whole time. I think that this play begins with tragedy because as the play opens, people are very sick and dying. As the play goes on we come to realize that Oedipus is actually the son of King Laius and the oracle that Jocasta was talking about was the reality of the situation. Oedipus was the son of Jocasta and King Laius and married his mom and became the new king. After we realize that he was the son of king Laius, we realize that Oedipus was the one to kill the kind.
DeleteI would agree and say that Oedipus fits as a tragedy. Something usually warns the tragic hero of there downfall, in Oedipus the oracle tells Oedipus that he will kill his father. Also an oracle tells Laius that when he has a son that he will be killed by him. Throughout the play he realizes that the man he had killed was his birth father and that he was married to his mother. When the play starts we see Oedipus pointing fingers at people for killing the prior king but after that we learn that he was the one that killed Laius.
DeleteDANTE
When I think about tragedies i think about stories like The Crucible, Macbeth, and the current book I am reading The Quiet Room. These all have tragedy elements. Usually tragedies have a sequence of unfortunate events. Most of the time it is a death or a sickness that leads to death. But, in The Quiet Room, there is a sickness but it does not lead to a death. You can learn a lot about Lori and her tragedy. She was cursed with schizophrenia. Her illness controlled her whole life. But, she stayed strong she fought through the hard years that she had. We can learn to be patient with ourselves and to not quit no matter how bad it get. We can also learn that getting help is not a bad thing! “Things began to fall apart. My lungs were screaming for air. The voices were screaming to be released. My control was becoming harder and harder”. (Schiller, 2015, p 179) Tragedy does not need a death to be tragic. Reading the quiet room you get the feel that Lori is in pain and would rather die. But, she stays alive although the circumstances she is faced with. She is a hero of her own self. “ One can not get a “tragic” effect from the destruction of a villain or the saint, but only from that of a good hero with some sort of flaw”. ( Otis, 1981, p 5)
ReplyDeletehttp://snclib.snc.edu/search~S2?/XShakespere+tragedy&searchscope=2&SORT=/XShakespere+tragedy&searchscope=2&SORT=&SORT=+Z&extended=0&SUBKEY=Shakespere+tragedy/1%2C1318%2C1318%2CB/frameset&FF=XShakespere+tragedy&searchscope=2&SORT=&8%2C8%2C
I disagree with you. She may have wanted to die, and suffered from this illness but thats not what makes it a tragedy. What makes this story tragic is what she loses and what she missed out on while she was suffering from schizophrenia.
Delete#77 @ Andria I agree that tragedy does not need to be a death, but I also think that Lori is the person who she is today because of everything that she missed out on when she ignored her illness. It made her stronger and she was able to overcome many things in her life.
DeleteComoMeLlamo: Tragedies are much more than just a story about tragic events. In Oedepus, the whole story was actually based on current events, just with references coming from the fifth century(Verseni, 1962, p. 20). Although we don't always understand these references, we can still learn about our current society by looking at how they were back then. According to Laszlo Versényi, while watching Oedipus, the audience was "watching itself"(Versenyi, 1962, p.21). Thinking like this, the question must be asked, in what way do we as a society compare to to them? Starting off in the beginning of the play, we see that the whole country is restless, and people are questioning their leader, much like our society today. In this tragedy, things look bleak, and they don't exactly get better. and yet Oedipus sticks to his guns the whole way. As a society today we can look at these stories and understand that even when the world looks like its on hard times, the most important thing is to stay strong even when it feels like everything is crumbling. There's a reason why the tragedy of Oedipus is one that continues to be replicated by authors to this day. It's because no matter what the time period, our world feels full of tragedies, and writing about tragedies that may be even worse is one of the few ways to make our world maybe feel just a tad better. That's just some of the ways that Oedipus can still be used today, and why tragedies are still being written.
ReplyDeleteSource:
Laszlo Versényi
Arion: A Journal of Humanities and the Classics, Vol. 1, No. 3 (Autumn, 1962), pp.20-33
I think the way you described Oedipus being based on current events is very eye opening and I agree with you. Oedipus can teach us how to look back on how things were versus how they are now. In using this technique we can learn from past mistakes and know how to better fix our current problems.
DeleteI agree with your point. Relating Oedipus to society today was a very good judgment. Relating the beginning of the play to the world we live in today was very accurate. Oedipus pointed fingers at many people for the problems occurring just like people in our government do to each other. He tore others down and made sure nothing was blamed on him even when Teiresias told him otherwise.
Delete#15 - When asked what a tragedy is, many people will answer with one word: death. However, death is not the only part of a tragic story. There are many aspects of a tragedy, such as having a tone of sadness or despair, the main character has a big fall, the story starts with a bad omen, and many more. Aristotle defined a tragedy like this:
ReplyDeleteTragedy, then, is the imitation of an action that is
heroic, complete, and of a
certain size in language embellished with all kinds
of ornament, each used
separately in the different parts of the play, in
dramatic, not narrative form, and
accomplishing with pity and fear the catharsis of
these emotions (Battin, 1975, p.294).
Both Oedipus and “The Great Gatsby” have aspects of tragedies. Both Oedipus and Jay Gatsby are men of wealth and high status. Usually, the people who have the high status in tragedies have a great fall, which happens to both Oedipus and Gatsby. Oedipus finds out that he is the person who has killed King Laius and married his mother, and Gatsby lost his dream about being with Daisy. They both take great hits from that and fall hard. Gatsby was not selfish like Oedipus was, but he did lose the thing that was most important to him, which was Daisy. Both stories have elements of tragedy within their main characters.
Anon 150: I completely agree that most people do think that all tragedies have to do with some form of death, but that is not entirely true. While most tragedies have a death, the tragedy i am reading is called, "The Quiet Room" by Lori Schiller and Amanda Bennet. In this story, Lori Schiller battles against herself and her own mind. Lori, unlike in most tragedies, survives this battle. Lori makes it out of the madness of her own mind and defeats her own demons. The Quiet Room shows other key elements of a tragedy like, deep sorrow and a tragic flaw within the character. For Lori it is her schizophrenia. I agree Aristotle that not all tragedies include death and that a story can accomplish tragedy, "with pity and fear the catharsis of these emotions".
DeleteTrevor Ray: You say Gatsby is not selfish but do we really know if he is or not. The way the book portrays his unselfishness is that he throws parties to spreadhis wealth for other people to come and enjoy themselves. But we later learn on in the book he only throws these lustrous parties to impress Daisy and to get her to come to them (Fitzgerald, 1925, pg 79). So if he is just throwing these parties to get something he wants (Daisy) then is he being unselfish or selfish. I believe that is a selfish act of Jay and he also does whatever he can in the story to get Daisy.
Delete#15 - My reference was:
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There is a lot more that people can relate to in tragedies these days than back in the Oedipus era. Oedipus is a tragic play, that deals with Kings and people of high status. Having someone of high status has always been a tragic element, however not all tragedies focus on that aspect anymore. The Quiet Room by Lori Schiller and Amanda Bennett is a more recent type of tragedy. The main character, Lori, is a pretty average person that is the focus of this tragedy. Lori battles with schizophrenia and the story is about her battle with that illness. It has a lot of tragic elements like leaders, losing everything, and so on. Society these days can relate more to this tragedy than the tragedy Oedipus. Oedipus is a story that more focuses on Kings and people of high status, so for certain readers it may be difficult to understand the tragedy of it. But, back in that time, people did relate to the tragedy because society has changed. So since society changed there has been a shift in the way tragedies are being portrayed. In The Quiet Room the tragedy is the voices that are constantly shouting at Lori everyday, and how they make her feel insecure and hate her self. Lori said in her journal "I'm a crippled loser with no future".(Schiller and Bennett, 2002, p.200) These feelings came from herself, which a lot of people in society can relate to today. Where in Oedipus he is the ruler of a country faced by the problem of sickness that is killing people in his country. People of higher status used to be used in tragedies, and still are, because it helps emphasize the tragedy, like in Romeo and Juliet. However, society nowadays would not understand unless they were a leader of a country or of higher status. Although this relates to society nowadays, many writers of tragic literature still like to use people of high status like "...Britain's first female politician..." because of the dramatizing of the tragedy. Both Oedipus and The Quiet Room are tragedies, but as far as one relating to today's society, The Quiet Room does that best, due to the differences in tragic elements.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.snc.edu/northwind/documents/By_work/Lilith/Rooted_in_all_its_Story,_More_is_Meant_than_Meets_the_Ear=_A_Study_of_the_Relational_and_Revelational_Nature_of_George_MacDonald's_Mythopoeic_Art_-_Kirstin_Jeffrey_Johnson.pdf
I never thought of it like that before, but I do like your point! The Quiet Room definitely seems much more relate able than Oedipus. However, I do still think we can learn lots from older pieces of literature too because we can apply a main theme from it to our lives in a different area than it was in the literature. But like you said, more modern literature would still be easier to relate to.
Delete"...performed tragedy is here re-framed as a site of embodied contest and struggle..." (Harrop, 2018). This quote is a very good example and description of tragedy, mainly because a tragedy is a constant struggle no matter who or what is struggling. Of course, tragedy is not only a struggle, but has many elements that make it what it is. Two examples of tragedy in a story would be a bad omen and diction. Normally both of these would be prominent in order to be classified as a tragedy, along with many other things. Both Oedipus and "The Quiet Room" have aspects of tragedy in the sense of struggle. Oedipus is struggling against almost every character in the play, and Lori Schiller is struggling against herself and her voices. In my own words, I would describe tragedy as a story/tale that starts off with something bad happening, a main character emerges and starts facing hardships, and the story ends rather unhappy.
ReplyDeleteReferences
Harrop, S. (2018). Greek Tragedy, Agonistic Space, and Contemporary Performance. New Theatre Quarterly, 34(2), 99–114. https://doi.org/10.1017/S0266464X18000027
#27: I agree and disagree. Yes, many tragedies do have the bad omen to being a book or a story. Oedipus definitely has that feeling in the very beginning. Lori on the other hand in the very beginning did not. The book started off sharing her joys of life and how accomplished she has been throughout her life. Once again I do agree, many of times the main character is faced with a hardship or rather and issue they must overcome.
DeleteTrevor Ray: I agree diction plays a huge factor in telling a tragedy. Without the correct diction the reader would not know how the characters are feeling. As in Oedipus the diction turns dark when the author uses words such as kill, banish, die, and merciful. Which lets the reader know dark things are about to happen or are happening like in Oedipus.
DeleteI agree that tragedies usually start off with a bad omen. In "The Great Gatsby" the book starts out by talking about Daisy and her rocky relationship with her husband Tom. Daisy explains that Tom wasn't there when she had their child, he has been cheating on her since their honeymoon, and basically has no respect for anyone. This bad omen in "The Great Gatsby" does not involve death like "Oedipus" does, but does involve great suffering.
Delete#27: It is quite difficult to define tragedy, not everyone can agree on what it truly is or what is should be. In the end, it is what you perceive is as. One philosophy is we must desire the ending, including the made which the desire is the tragedy (Currie, 2010, pg 632). Nowadays, it is pretty safe to say when you think of a tragedy, you think of death. We consider the character to be striped away from everything they have ever loved or owned, to be left with nothing and sometimes the nothing is just death.
ReplyDelete“Tragedy might be understood as an action, a social force influenced by history, politics, and ideology (Roman, 2002, pg 2).” Tragedy is all around us, we experience tragedy aspects every single day based on what those say. Everyday we are influenced by the past, the experiences we once had. The way we changed our actions impacts the following action. In a tragedy, we constantly see a higher force come to play at some point. In The Quiet Room, Lori Schiller is constantly influenced by the voices in her head, due to schizophrenia. Throughout the book the voices turn Lori from doing what she was initially planning on doing, “The Voices were shouting, egging me on. I couldn't stop them. They took control…” (Schiller & Bennett, 1994, pg 201). In Oedipus, he is constantly influenced by a Priest, which he is worried about the higher power of God and what is right or wrong. Tragedies often use the higher force to show that the characters are not in control of the situation.
In modern society, we do not relate issues as a tragedy. It is not a common phrase that is ought to be thrown around. When someone is out of control of a situation on the other hand and there is nothing left to do, some begin to have the realization of the tragedy. When is out of one’s hands and “the higher force” is the only explanation, people come to their sense.
Tragedy is not simply defined as a single term. It is used in many varied ways. Oedipus and Lori both have aspects exemplifying tragedy multiple ways. Death is certainly one way, but does not certainly for the other. However one may desire the tragedy and the route it takes is how the store will take on.
References: https://www-jstor-org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/pdf/40930270.pdf and
https://www-jstor-org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/25069017?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=What&searchText=is&searchText=a&searchText=tragedy&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3Fgroup%3Dnone%26amp%3Brefreqid%3Dexcelsior%253Accfaae1002d5251c0df5cf4ed9315b74%26amp%3Bacc%3Don%26amp%3Bwc%3Don%26amp%3Bfc%3Doff%26amp%3BQuery%3DWhat%2Bis%2Ba%2Btragedy&refreqid=search%3Ae75b29b7e2087549b8fc2e702e90db6d&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents
I agree with you that we now think of death as the main form of tragedy, however I would not say that this concept is not a new one. Even in older tragedies, death is often the main storyline. In Oedipus, the entire plot revolves around a murder, a death, and by all means a tragedy. Even in tragedies like Romeo and Juliet, death is the end focus. While these stories do include societal issues, I would argue that death itself is a major factor to a tragedy, and always has been.
Delete#22- When a tragedy hits, it is always unexpected and involves the mental or physical
ReplyDeletesuffering of a person or character. “Suffering is universal. Although its form and duration are varied, no one is immune” (Minton & Antonen, 2013, pg 468) In the book The Quiet Room by Lori Schiller and Amanda Bennett the main character Lori Schiller becomes mentally ill with Schizophrenia in her late teens. Lori grew up with a great childhood, and a very loving family with high expectations. Loris tragedy can be learned from because of how long she waited to get help. When she heard the voices inside of her head, Lori did nothing about them for years, until she finally decided to go to a therapist. In this tragedy, along with many others, it breaks off the relationships of the people she used to be close with, and separates each other based upon elements in the tragedy that a person is bias toward. In The Quiet Room, Loris parents become quite frustrated with each other. “But with Lori’s illness came a change in our family status.” (Schiller & Bennett, 1994, pg. 79). In Oedipus, much like The Quiet Room, the tragedy hits unexpected. When the plague hits, and Tiresias reveals that Oedipus is the murderer of King Laius, the oracles say that he should be expelled. Before Oedipus found out he killed King Laius, he was very quick to point the finger at Tiresias for the killing of the king. Something we can learn for this tragedy is that a person should always know facts before accusing other people of killing kings, and in today's society, not so much killing kings, but things in everyday life that may happen, to no go putting blame on people.
https://www-jstor-org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/24484998?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=Tragedy&searchText=in&searchText=suffering&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3DTragedy%2Bin%2Bsuffering&refreqid=search%3A86f92534c2b06990610f708a30071bd6&seq=2#metadata_info_tab_contents
Similar to Lori’s parents relationship becoming strained due to her illness, John's relationship with his mother Linda becomes strained after Bernard brings them back to civilization. Once in civilization, Linda is reunited with soma, a drug that causes you to be more agreeable and hallucinate pleasant experiences. The nurses keep Linda subdued with a constant supply of soma, Linda loses most of her personality and pretty much all lucid thought. John does not at all agree with the usage of soma and prefers to experience every emotion without a barrier. Eventually, the soma addiction kills Linda after John tries to wake her from her stupor and the soma which was essentially sustaining her, stops working and she forgets how to breathe.While John did love Linda their differences in the use of soma drove them apart eventually for good.
Delete"Aristotle's distinction between tragedy (which imitates actions to arouse emotions) and history (which states facts) was ignored by historians, who, influenced by Isocrates, wrote tragical histories"(Ullman, 1942, P.1). Tragedy is often associated with the death of the main character. However as we can see from the definition that Aristotle gave to us, it its a way to get emotion out of people. while death isn't the only way to get emotion out of people, it is still a very effective tactic. That is why death is seen in a majority of tragic tales. A tragic tale that that modern society can learn from, is A Brave New World. The book takes a look at the far future, where technology not only controls our lives, but is used to create it. The first half of the story sets up an understanding of the world, as well as introducing us to Bernard Marx. He is different from the rest of the alphas, seeing as he was much smaller then they were. During the first half, Bernard is taking a woman named Lenina on a date to the Savage reservation. Before he is allowed to go, he has to meet with the Director. The director goes off on a tangent while speaking with Bernard and talks about a trip he took to the reservation. He lost his date there after a storm blew through. when he gets done with the story, he is mad he let Bernard into his personal life. The Director then proceeds to berate Bernard about his performance, and threatens to ship him off to Iceland. It then becomes Bernard's goal to get him back. While Bernard and Lenina are at the Reservation, they meet a young savage named John. Bernard realizes that John is the Director's son, and offers to take him back to London. This begins the second half. When Bernard arrives back at the Hatchery, He greets the Director and introduces him to his son. The Director becomes embarrassed and runs off. People during this time were grossed out from having real parents, because they were all born from test tubes. After this, John and Lenina start to talk and hang out. One day at Lenina's apartment, John confessed his love for Lenina, and asked her to marry him. Lenina was confused on the topic of marriage, so she took of her clothes and John became very disturbed. he left very angry. later in the book, Bernard is moved to Iceland after he participates in a fight that broke out because of John. John moves out to the country and starts to hip his back evry day as punishment for enjoying any part of this new world. this gains the attention of a crowd of people who like his ritual, and the group has an orgy in his yard one night. in the morning he is so disturbed by this that he hangs himself. Brave New worlds describe what our world could look like in the future, with an every evolving technological world. It shows us that while this change might seem like it would help out the world tremendously. The damage it would have on people from the old world, like john, would disgust them, and drive them mad. In Bernard's case, revenge isn't always the best course of action, as we can see now that he is stuck on Iceland.
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B.L. Ullman (1942), History and Tragedy
https://www-jstor-org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/283535?Search=yes&resultItemClick=true&searchText=tragic&searchText=elements&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3Fwc%3Don%26amp%3BQuery%3Dtragic%2Belements%26amp%3Bgroup%3Dnone%26amp%3Bacc%3Don%26amp%3Bfc%3Doff&refreqid=search%3A64c67f8b472c907db586723bd6fada99&seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
#219 The world of tragic literature has evolved and diminished since the days where theaters would host large plays and the such. Tragic literature now is portrayed different because of the lifestyles that we live that provides more "solidity in material culture"-(Taplin, 2018). We now look to modern movies to entertain us. Films such as Blood Diamond, Shutter Island, and Gran Torino provide tragic characteristics that provide for experiences that could be present. Not at all does this seem to take away from the Greek tragedy because their legacy with popularizing the works of art. It seems as if tragedy has now fallen into a world weir it is portrayed by true action or death to be tragic. Not at all does this mean heartbreak or the love stricken stories have fallen unpopular. They have just been overused in a way. Of course we all aspire to be entertained by something original and new ideas are scarce. Today's culture has evolved so much that political aspects have perhaps landed with the writers thoughts when birthing new work.
ReplyDeleteTaplin, O. (2018). [online] Oxfordhandbooks.com.snc.idm.oclc.org. Available at: http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199286140.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199286140-e-41 [Accessed 30 Oct. 2018].
#15 - I agree with you completely about the fact that many people have lost the true meaning of tragedy in literature. When thinking about tragic elements, death is usually what people think of, when in reality, there are many more aspects of tragic stories.
DeleteNot all tragedies end badly. Some actually end quite well. Many people, when they think of a tragedy, they just think of something that is very sad, like a bad car accident. A bad car accident isn’t a tragedy. There’s much more to a tragedy than just sorrow. “The essence of tragedy is not ‘sorrow’ but the philosophical depth of sorrow” (Kayhan, 2014, p. 43). What exactly makes a tragedy? Tragedies typically consist of a gruesome event that completely changes someone’s life. The person that undergoes this hardship may pick themselves back up and pick up their pieces, but some may not. Some may stay broken and some may even die. Death is very common in tragedies, like in “The Tragedy of Macbeth”, “Oedipus the King”, and “Native Son”. Death is a very common gruesome event, but the gruesome event does not have to be death. In “Native Son” the gruesome event isn’t just the death of a girl. It is a mixture of things, including his girlfriend trying to leave him and the stress of working for white people when racism was still a serious issue. In “Oedipus the King”, the death of Laius isn’t the only part that makes this play a tragedy. The news that he was not the son to the man he thought and that the man he thought was his father is dead all play a major role in making this play a tragedy. Many tragedies also try to put the blame on people. It is very unrealistic for these people going through through the hardship to be the cause of it all, but the writer tries to make it seem like the character believes they were the cause of it all to amplify the tragedy in the story.
ReplyDeleteKayhan, S. (2014). Fragments of Tragedy in Postmodern Film. Retrieved October 30, 2018 from http://saintnorbertcollegelibrary.worldcat.org/title/fragments-of-tragedy-in-postmodern-film/oclc/893739596&referer=brief_results
#15 - I agree with you, @Kai, that there are other aspects of tragic stories that don't involve death. I am reading "The Great Gatsby" and Jay Gatsby goes through some tragic events. The major event for him though, is the loss of his love. Daisy goes back with Tom, and Gatsby decides to go on trips to France and then Louisville. The book states, "He left feeling that if he had searched harder, he might have found her -- that he was leaving her behind." (Fitzgerald, 1925, p. 152-153). Gatsby feels lost without her and realizes that his life has no meaning without her.
Delete@Kai- I agree with you 100% that a tragedy is not just death. Like in "I Am Malala" she did not die from the gun shot but her whole life was turned upside down. What makes Malala's story such a tragedy is the hardships that her and her family go through for years. The poverty, the discrimination, and even the fight against the Taliban make this story a tragedy.
ReplyDelete#77-There are many different kinds of tragedies. One single event or person can be involved in a tragedy and because of this tragic event, it negatively affects them for the rest of their lives. A tragedy can also happen over time with a compilation of small unfortunate events that lead up to one, horrific event, like the Holocaust. (Beaudoin, 1997) Oedipus is a tragedy, because he had a series of unfortunate happenings and lost everything in the end. He killed his own father, married his mother, and after he found that she had hung herself, he took her brooches and struck his eyes again and yet again. (Sophocles, Pg 66) In this case, he did not know the facts about his real father and mother, and led him to these tragic events. Sometimes not knowing certain critical facts in a situation can lead to tragedy like in Oedipus. An example of a tragedy in not knowing the facts in current time could be a police officer shooting a victim that is not armed, but the police officer thinks they are armed and dangerous. That police officer is not equipped with all of the facts just as Oedipus didn’t know. We can learn from this by doing our research and ensuring we know the facts before making rash decisions. I am reading the Quiet Room, and the main character, Lori Schiller goes through a series of events, but I don’t believe they add up to a tragedy. She suffers from an illness and for many years, brushes it aside. It isn’t until she is diagnosed with schizophrenia, and realizes what is actually wrong with her, that she accepts her illness and makes strides to live a normal life.
ReplyDeleteBeaudoin, J. (1997, ). History of the Holocaust. Retrieved October 30, 2018, from http://web.b.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?vid=4&sid=ccb37a61-2752-4b1b-af59-1f80efadbb16%40pdc-v-sessmgr06
#22 to #77- I agree with you that The Quiet Room is not a tragedy. A tragedy is something of total life long devastation or destruction, and in Lori Schiller's situation, she gets better to the point where she can even live on her own. The doctors in the beginning of the book made it look like it was going to be a total tragedy, telling Loris parents that they need to accept that Lori is mentally ill, and will always be. “That young man who turned out to be a resident in psychiatry had told us to ‘face facts’ in the same tone of voice he might have used to tell us he was breaking a dinner date with us.” (Schiller & Bennett, 1994, pg. 78). Lori was finally put on the drug Colapine and that was the turning point of her recovery. Lori ended up getting married and she now calls her husband “Mr. Wonderful”, and that is definitely not a characteristic of a tragedy.
Delete#2.07 to #77- Even though I am not reading the Quiet Room, from your description the whole book does not sound like a tragedy. However parts of her life could have had a momentary tragedy. Because death does not always have to be portrayed in a tragedy that allows many other things to happen to consider it a tragedy. You made it sound that for some of Lori's life her and her family did not know what was going on with her mental state. This would leave her in a state of confusion and wonder about how she wasn't considered "normal". This could be considered a tragedy because of the things that both her and her family went through during this time. Even though the whole story did not turn out to be a tragedy because she was diagnosed and learned how to control her illness, the part of her life that was not put together could be considered a momentary tragedy.
DeleteAnon 150 to #22 and #77: I disagree. A tragedy doesnt have to be a "lifelong devastation" nor complete destruction. Many of the most famous tragedies do not have either of those. Romeo and Juliet had wonderful lives and very wealthy families. It is considered a tragedy because there was moral weakness and fatal flaws. The Quiet Room shoes moral weakness when Lori turns to drugs and alcohol to face her problems. Lori became so addicted to cocaine that she heard the voices calling for it. "Soon I began hearing the of cocaine again" (Schiller & Bennet, 2004, page 179). No one died in "The Quiet Room" but it had many other elements of tragedy such as social pressures, flaw in character, and weakness. Tragedies show sad and misery in their diction which this novel does very clearly. Words like, "desperately" and "disaster" on pages 180 and 181. Not all tragedies have to include death nor lifelong misery and destruction.
Delete#2.07- There are many elements that can make a novel, play, or movie a tragedy. A lot of these elements are shown throughout both Oedipus and The Great Gatsby. In Oedipus, the king is of high status and influenced by people. That is also true of Gatsby, he is extremely wealthy and known which makes him a leader, but if it weren’t for all the people that go to all of his extravagant parties, he would be nobody. The only reason he is that popular is because people choose to show up, without their influence, nobody would care about the rich man. Another major element that is usually portrayed in tragedies is death. In Oedipus the reason behind the death was selfish, even though it was thought to have come from fate, the power that was wanted subconsciously meant that the old King had to be taken down. Though in the Great Gatsby death wasn’t driven by power, the tragic element was still in the book. This death was caused by love. Jay Gatsby was so overwhelmed with the love he had for Daisy it drove him to his death. “Gatsby’s devotion to Daisy is an implicit assault on the human condition. His passion would defy time and decay to make the glorious first moment of wonder, which is past, eternally present. His passion is supra- sexual, even super-personal” (Samuels, 1966, pg 5,6). All in all, both Oedipus and The Great Gatsby are tragedies in similar and different ways.
ReplyDeleteSamuels, C. (1966). The Greatness of "Gatsby". The Massachusetts Review, 7(4), 783-794. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/25087514
People often confuse the term "tragedy", when people think of a tragedy they normally think of a lot of deaths. As a lot of the time death does occur in some point of the story tragedy provides as a descriptive nature. As Koelb states "Our common understanding of the term 'tragedy' would classify it as descriptive (a word which says something about the nature of an object) rather than an evaluative (one which provides information about the relationship between us and the object)." ( Koelb, pg. 69, 1974). Oedipus and "The Great Gatsby" both have characters as high status that fall. Oedipus struggled through being told he would kill his father so ran but ended up killing him, then he married his mother without knowing. Jay Gatsby would be considered a tragic hero because he was wealthy and at the end was killed, which would ultimately take the role of a tragic hero.
ReplyDeleteKoelb, C. (1974). "Tragedy" as an Evaluative Term. Comparative Literature Studies, 11(1), 69-84. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.snc.idm.oclc.org/stable/40468048
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Anon 150: Both pieces of literature I am reading have elements of tragedy. Most people believe that in order to be a tragedy you need death. This can be death of a main character or one of a minor character. In the playwright Oedipus by Sophocles this is in fact the case. Oedipus, the King, kills many people to get his way. He threatens people for the truth and manipulates who he can (Sophocles, 430 B.C). The book of choice that i am currently reading is The Quiet Room by Lori Schiller and Amanda Bennet. Both books i am reading have a main character who has a few fatal flaws within their character, but only one involves death. A tragedy can be more than just death, as shown in The Quiet Room. Lori Schiller conveys elements of tragedy in the fact that she has a moral weakness. Lori struggles with schizophrenia and drug addiction from moral weakness. She has a fatal flaw within herself and is fighting a battle between her own mind. Lori says, “I grew increasingly depressed. The Voices were back in force. There almost never seemed to be a time when the Voices left me alone.” (Schiller & Bennet, 2004, page 23). Lori forged her way on and tried to remain strong for many years until her illness got the best of her, After Loris suicide attempt, she really went downhill. The database explains, “A suicide attempt finally landed her in the hospital, and she spent the next seven years as a typical mental patient, in and out of institutions” (Warner, 1996, page 288). We can learn from both types of writing. Although they are very different types of writings and literature, both have similar elements of tragedy including fatal flaw and moral weakness. We can learn that not all tragedies include death but in fact, sorrow and typically a sad diction. We learn that even the best leaders and most educated people can have fatal flaw and that that is what truly makes for an excellent tragedy. In the novel, “The Quiet Place” we learn that no matter what obstacles you face, a true leader can bounce back, like Lori did. We as a society can now understand better what a tragedy today looks like versus a tragedy from much before our time and what a tragedy entails. http://web.b.ebscohost.com.snc.idm.oclc.org/ehost/detail/detail?vid=3&sid=998c156e-4908-4136-a890-13ea8f91b008%40pdc-v-sessmgr01&bdata=JkF1dGhUeXBlPWlwLGNwaWQmY3VzdGlkPXM2OTQ0Mjc4JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#AN=13012963&db=lfh
ReplyDeleteBrave New World has a tragedy that we as a modern society can not only learn from, but should learn from. As time goes on and changes are made to society, these changes become normalized and the past is forgotten. Today, some would say, our world is headed down a dark path; one we may not be able to return from. As David Roman said, the world in which we live, "... [is] a world of terrible suffering and loss, a world that seems at times evacuated of hope, a world in which these feelings have been normalized as, well, simply life..." (Roman, 2002, Tragedy). In Brave New World, the setting is a scientifically advanced dystopian society in which the emotional feeling of life is nearly non-existant. There is no family structure, no love, and no relationships (beyond exclusively physical). People in Brave New World are "created" in a sense for a predestined job or role. Each child is "decanted" in a large facility, similar to a factory that might produce identical toaster ovens for different companies, and then is conditioned to be the best at their specific role. For example, lower class citizens- who are only meant to be used as labor workers or servants- are given a lesser amount of oxygen during their conditioning since their roles in society will not require the large amount of brain power that a scientist would need. As children grow up in these facilities, mantras are whispered in their ears as they sleep every night, in order to create citizens who are brainwashed into acceptance. One of these mantras is "everyone belongs to everyone", which not only destroys relationships and emotional connections between people, but also eliminates the idea of love and family. These things are fundamental to our society's foundation. In Brave New World, the absence of family, love, and emotion has become completely normalized, although, if we were to be forced to abandon these things in today's society, it would be a tragedy. The fact that the citizens in Brave New World are forced to live this way is a tragedy; even more so that they don't understand how life used to be and what they're missing. In order to fill this gap in life, everyone takes a drug (soma) to relieve the absence of emotional attachments. Our modern society can learn from Brave New World by receiving this literature as a warning, or a what-not-to-do guide, for if we follow this dark pathway of which there is no return, it will ultimately lead to self destruction... and tragedy.
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