Real Hero or Mock Hero?
[Choose 1-2 of the following to post about]
You should be able to write about past half of the novel. Do not reveal the end. If you are in the TH White, first half of the novel is fine.
*What heroic aspects does your main character have or lack?
*What is being mocked in your book and how does this compare with the farce/satiric play we viewed from NMU?
*What aspects of the government or society are being made fun of in your book and/or the play we viewed?
You may discuss any beginning segments of your new novel but do not spoil the end of the book (yet).
Funny pun names based on any of the literature--encouraged or post as yourself.
PLEASE DO NOT POST WITHOUT A NAME
For full credit, you MUST have quotations as support of your points from 2 texts, you MUST show reading and avoid online summary info, you MUST respond to a minimum of 2 posts. Points will be deducted for those students who wait until the last 12-24 hours, for spelling problems, repeating information already stated, confusing responses, attacking classmates verbally, simply agreeing without saying much of anything, or off-topic commentary.
------APA documentation must be used----
Your argument will be judged harshly, so be prepared to defend yourself!
**This blog will end at 10 a.m. or sooner on 10/27. Remember that starting on the last 12-24 hours prior will result in loss of points since your discussion will be limited.
John is an honest person and a real hero. He sees the truths of the new world and how people are not happy, and most need a drug for a fabrication of happiness. For example, his mother, who was essentially the village crazy lady, until she got back to the "modern world",and used Soma until she died.
ReplyDeleteThis post is pretty confusing, and it took me a few minutes to get what you're saying. What's the modern world, and what's soma? You should also give examples as to why John is honest instead of why the world is bad. John recognising what is going on around him doesn't make him a hero.
DeleteThis post is too short to achieve much of anything. You say that John is a real hero but throughout the book he is shown to be mostly sad for himself and society. He does not save anyone, he does not help Lenina or Bernard really. He is not loyal to anyone except his own Gods. Just being honest and recognizing problems does not make one a hero.--Angus
DeleteTry to get some APA to support your claim, John is a guy who is not welcome in his society, try using thatr to support it also, what has he done?
DeleteIm really confused on what prompt your talking about. You didn't really answer them I fell like and as well as didn't use any quotes from your book.
DeleteSoma is a hallucinogenic drug. similar to heroin. The "modern wold" is a futuristic world set in the year 632 AF, a date system established in the future.
DeleteKing Arthur is almost infallible, but not quite. He is shown helping others in many instances, but he also has some selfish desires. When dreaming of being a knight, he mentions "...[I'll] never do anything but joust and go on quests and bear away the prize at [Jousting] tournaments..." (White, 1965, pg 60) Not once in his speech does he mention the urge to help others, but only fame.
ReplyDeleteEven with this, Arthur is noble. I believe that everyone is susceptible to worldly desires such as pride, even a future king, and especially a child. Even if this is the way he thinks, he helps others almost instinctively. We see this just a few pages later, whilst watching two knights jousting, Arthur feels sympathy for those fighting for honor. "I hope they don't hurt themselves." (White, 1965, pg 67) And after their battle, he wishes to still care for the knights. "Ought we to get down and help them?" (White, 1965, pg 72)
I am curious if you feel any lessons that Arthur has learned from Merlin will make him a better king? Do you think the sympathy he feels for others will overpower his need for power later on? Will he apply rules to himself?
DeleteI think Merlin’s lesions will help him lead. The main example I think of is the weird chapter where they turned into fish, as Merlin was having Arthur see life from a very different perspective, teaching him understanding.
DeleteDo you think that king Arthur was really a hero because it seems he did heroic things but almost for the wrong reasons. His drive comes from the wanting of fame? I haven't read it but that's just what I kind of got out of your post.
DeleteFor more context he's like 14 when he says he wants fame. Still though, his good deeds outweigh the bad.
DeleteIn my opinion, as far as a gotten into the book I think Bernard best fits the role of a "real hero" because he is the only one in the new world who sees what is actually happening, nobody else sees his vision. Everyone's life is simulated, people are being contolled. For example when Bernard and Lenina went to the Savage Reservation Lenina was digusted by it because she is so used and you can say "programmed" to like what she's been around her entire life. As for Bernard he understands what is happening in this reservation and why the natives live like this. They aren't living like they are in London. Bernard knows what it's like to be different from other people, this is why he is so against everything back at home. "If ones different, ones bound to be lonely".(Huxley, pg 137). As we know Bernard is different from all the alphas, so it's harder to socialize or be accepted if he is different from everybody else, he's frustrated that Lenina doesn't understand what he sees.
ReplyDeleteBernard has hero quallities like being honest when he tells people things, and he is loyal to Lenina even know she sleeps with other guys, he's also very inteligent to realize everything. He's the closest thing to a hero in my opinion(halfway through the book).
DeleteIs Bernard being "loyal" to his society? He feels as though he doesn't measure up to being an alpha. How or what does he do to be outside of the societal norms that is heroic?
DeleteBernard is not being loyal to his society because he's different from everybody else. Bernard feels like he is not being included because he is shorter than all of the other alphas. Bernard only likes to stay with one girl which is frowned apon in this society.
DeleteHow does Bernard play the role of the hero. He is observing the world around him and recognizing the issues, but he doesn't take any action to stop it, other than bringing John to meet the DHC, however you could also argue that Bernard was being selfish by bringing him back, because the DHC threatend him with exile if he went to the reserve.
DeleteSome aspects that are being mocked in Brave New World is Totalarian Everyone does a job based on their abilities ands needs which are given to them when they emerge from these factories. The government is in complete control of you. This is why if you're an "outsider" and not doing what is right, you are frowned apon even know in the end it may be the right decision. For example Bernard thinks being with many women is wrong, which I agree, but Lenina is so brainwashed by the government that she thinks it's right and she doesn' wan't to be different from everybody else so she doesn't want to rebel. “I’d rather be myself,” he said. “Myself and nasty. Not somebody else, however jolly.”(Huxley, Ch 6). Bernard is being himself and he's mad all the time but Lenina is not being herself and she's always happy.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that this is similar to any aspects of our real government and society? Do you think that maybe our government makes certain things seem morally okay that aren't?
DeleteNot our government in the United States, but other countries around the world that are totally under government control or dictatorship, I do think some countries do things that aren't morally good.
DeleteTry to do APA--I love how you talk about the need for individualism.
ReplyDeleteGrendel absolutely loves to mock the idea of heroism, and he loves to mock the people who claim to be heroes. There is a huge example of this in his battle against Unferth. A battle that has proved to me that Unferth truly is a mock hero, which I think Grendel realized as well.
ReplyDeleteUnferth begins to take steps toward Grendel with his sword when the mockery starts. “‘Come, come,’ I said. ‘Let me tell them I was sent by Side-ways-Walker,” (Gardner, 1971, p.71) Grendel stated due to Unferth taking a few sidesteps which Grendel described to be a ridiculous maneuver that made Unferth look like a wrestler, not a knight. Unferth then begins a short speech, a speech that proves to me that Unferth’s heroism is for his own gain. Unferth states the reason he is in battle against Grendel--he is in it for Hrothgar. From his next words, it gives rise to the question, “Is he really?” Looking deeper into his reasoning it became clear to me that his loyalty to Hrothgar (loyalty being a huge heroic characteristic) is just loyalty to the gifts Hrothgars gives him. This also can be compared to a true hero taking no reward, which Unferth obviously does not do. “The king has given me splendid gifts. He will see tonight that his gifts have not gone for nothing!”(Gardner, 1971, p.72) Grendel laughs at this speech and proceeds to mock Unferth by laughing at what a terrible burden it is to be a hero with everyone watching him. Unferth is hurt by this and makes a move on Grendel with his sword, causing Grendel to simply throw an apple at Unferth. One apple led to another before Grendel described it as raining apples. (It’s funny to see how in “Spamalot,” the French threw random things such as farm animals at King Arthur when they didn’t believe him to be a real hero/king, and to compare that to how Grendel is throwing random apples he had found at Unferth in order to mock him for being a so-called hero.)
It was funny to see the supposedly brave Unferth starts crying after slipping in his own blood (after having an apple, which was thrown by Grendel, hit him directly in the nose). “He screamed and thrashed, trying to get at me and at the same time trying to see if the others were watching. He was crying, only a boy, famous hero or not: a poor miserable virgin” (Gardner, 1971, p.74).Grendel left after seeing this humiliating attempt at being a hero. Not willing to be put to shame, Unferth shows up at Grendel’s cave. It's as clear to me as it is to Grendel that Unferth is practically begging Grendel to kill him. “He let his cheek fall to the floor and lay panting for a long time, saying nothing. It dawned on me that he was waiting for me to kill him. I did nothing”(Gardner, 1971, p.75). In my eyes, Grendel does not want to give Unferth the honorable death that he is attempting to gain. Grendel made Unferth look like a complete fool, and unwilling to accept that, Unferth wanted to be known as the man who died of Grendel’s hand in an attempt to save Hrothgar’s hall. (During this, Unferth keeps referring to himself as a hero, which gets on Grendel’s nerves. I believe that Unferth knows he does not have what it takes to be an actual hero, so he likes to call himself one.) When Grendel tells Unferth that neither of them were going to die and that he would carry Unferth back to the hall Unferth threatens to kill himself so nobody knows whether he died by Grendel or if he fleed. Grendel calls him out for being cowardly, proving that he is a mock hero.
Unferth had many characteristics that would prove him to be a real hero, only he used them for the wrong reasons. He was loyal to Hrothgar for the treasures and his goal to kill Grendel was to appear as a hero. Unferth was willing to risk his life, but that was only to appear as though he had died an honorable death. In turn, Unferth also has aspects that would apply to a mock hero, such as being a coward, and taking rewards for the good deeds he has done for Hrothgar. With all of these traits compiled together, it is clear in my opinion that that Unferth is a mock hero.
I feel as though Grendel has some hero characteristics such as his "honor". He feels a lot of honor for himself that he won't let Unferth be killed so easily. He feels as though he too worthy and powerful to be wasting his time on killing such a fool. If we were to talk loyalty, I feel it's important to talk about how Grendel is loyal to himself, which in my opinion is a good characteristic to have.
DeleteAre you claiming that there are no heroes in the book Grendel? You make a very good point that Grendel is smart and that Unferth is a subversion of heroic cliches, but is there a hero in the book? Grendel seems far too cynical and selfish to be a hero, so is there anyone?--Angus
DeleteIt is apparent that throughout the book ‘Grendel’, the way that the humans treat Grendel is similar to the racism issues in America and all over the world. Although, some may argue that Grendel and the humans differ too much to make this observation. I think that Grendel and the humans were almost exactly the same, before Grendel became evil. The humans villainize Grendel because of his difference in appearance and speech. This is similar to how the Europeans dictated over the africans. Simply because one didn't understand the other, it caused a chain reaction of abuse towards the minority. But in Grendel, the subject being slandered for its differences actually ends up being the one with the upper hand, physically at least. In both cases the people or things being considered as “civilized” end up making the other side seem animal like and evil right out of the get-go. The reality of it is that the other side being judged, was originally, party permanently, indeed not animalistic instead just different and misunderstood. This causes the minority to be treated worse and almost shunned from society by the “noble people”.“In the darkness, I alone see clear as day. While they squeal and screech and bump into each other, I silently sack up my dead and withdraw them into the woods. I eat and laugh and eat until I can barely walk.”(Gardner, 1971, p.7)
ReplyDeleteGrendel is definitely not a hero in most ways. He has all of the potential to be a hero, strength and loyalty wise, but not the right appearance and voice. Not only that but he doesn't really seem too care to be a hero. His loyalty is driven from his hatred for Hrothgar, but this drove him to cause chaos and get revenge, whereas traditional heroes typically devote their life to stopping this evil from happening to others for their well-being. Heros are broadly known as being very brave and selfless, only one of which Grendel attributes to, sometimes. Grendel is brave only when he thinks he can truly overpower it, he will quickly turn into a coward when he's faced with something bigger and stronger than him. He has no deep faith or drive in himself and his strength. It's truly shocking how selfish Grendel is, which probably is from his isolation. He is really only selfless when it comes to things that he doesn't completely hate, which isn't a lot of things but one is his mother. Although sometimes it does seem that he neglects his mom and only wants her when he's in trouble and needs help or back-up. She may even be aware of this as she left him to sit and wait for her to save him for days while he was in agonizing pain. “I'm going to die,” ”Poor Grendel! Poor old Mama!” “Poor Grendel will lay here and starve to death,” “and nobody will ever miss him!”. (Gardner, 1971, p.14). Throughout the book Grendel proves to us time and time again that he only shows heroic aspects when it's for his own good, even if it's harming other things.
I think in Grendel it almost makes fun of today's politics. I know the book was written in the '70's but I still feel as though we can still see some parallels today. I feel as though Hrothgar and his clan/"party" are almost a joke. They have gathered many people to believe in Hrothgar and his doings to a point where it is Hrothgar vs. everyone else. I feel that this could represent political parties (Republican and Democrat). They use "propaganda" in the form of the Shaper, who sings songs about how great Hrothgar and his people are and about how Grendel (representing the other party) is horrible and evil. "The harp turned solemn. He told of an ancient feud between two brothers which split all the world between darkness and light. And I, Grendel, was the dark side, he said in effect. The terrible race God cursed." (Gardner, 1971, pg. 43) Grendel and Hrothgar's people are divided. While Grendel tries to communicate with the people, they do not even try to understand his side (very true in today's politics. I am kind of iffy on this take but I feel as though the Dragon is of a higher standing, like maybe a president. He only grants one side (party) the powers and favoritism of how he did Grendel. This could be a representation of how Presidents choose a party and are either Democratic or Republican. The Dragon also acts as though he is above all others and seems to be sort of wise. "You now, you see the past and the present, like other low creatures: no higher faculties than memory and perception. But dragons, my boy, have a whole different kind of mind." (Gardner, 1971, pg. 53) Presidents, and other government officials in high positions often know they are above others, and give off a sense of superiority. With their power, they make others feel lower than them, like the Dragon does to Grendel.
ReplyDeleteI really like this perspective of the book! Since you believe that Hrothgar is sort of a joke, do you think that he does no good for his people? It'd be nice to hear some examples of things he has done that make you feel like his clan is a joke, just to get a little more specific.
DeleteI don't necessarily think Hrothgar does no good for his people and is a "joke", I think Grendel thinks he is a joke. Hrothgar in my opinion has overruled everybody fairly and I think Grendel is jealous of him and his success and the fact that he has a group that supports him and loves him.
DeleteI have read further than the quotes I used btw, they were just the ones I felt as most fitting.
ReplyDeleteFROM EMMY:
ReplyDeleteGrendel gives some aspects of a hero. He was brave to go into the darkness of the cave to meet the dragon. "Who is it" I said. No answer.Darkness." (Gardner 1971r,pg 47)"I made my mind blank and fell,sank away like a stone through earth and sea,toward the dragon"(Gardner 1971,pg 48). Grendel tries to be truthful "Nothing interests you but excitement, violence" "that's not true!" I said" (Gardner 1971, pg 57) "You tell me what's true?" he said. "I'm trying to follow. I do my best" I said."( Gardner 1971, pg 57). This shows that he really is misunderstood and shows some traits of a hero. He is trying to do his best but people just see him as a scary monster.
Do you think that Grendel is a hero to others in a way, or just a hero to himself? He has a lot of aspects that heroes have such as loyalty and set goals, but does he only have those traits for the good of himself or the good of others? (And would that make him a mock hero?)
DeleteI like the idea of this, but I feel like you should include more examples of how he demonstrates hero straights instead of just bravery because I feel that only being brave doesn't make you a hero
DeleteI think you need to go a little more in depth and give some more examples.. but I personally agree Grendel has some heroic aspects as well. I like the quotes you used.
DeleteANGUS POST
ReplyDeleteIn Brave New World, there are no heroes. Every one of the main characters has not an inkling of selflessness. However, by the end of the novel, one character does commit a heroic act. John the Savage is the closest thing to a hero in the darkly satiric future of Brave New World, and it is his honesty and strong values that affect the people around him. John does not directly have any magical powers, does not save anyone, and is not loyal to any man. This being said, John is gifted with knowledge of literature and history, something the rest of society does not have. He is also religious and seeks out the service of a higher power, something he does not find in the modern world.
He often quotes Shakespeare and uses his love for the playwright to guide him through life. Shakespeare’s plays are full of romance and heroism, things that modern society sees as brutish and outdated. “By some malice of his memory the Savage found himself repeating Miranda’s words. ‘O brave new world that has such people in it.’” (Huxley & Shakespeare, 1932, p. 160). He says this quote from The Tempest right after witnessing the man-made horrors of the new world.
The argument could be made that John the Savage is not particularly loyal, given his betrayal of Bernard before a party. “Bernard had to shout through the locked door; the Savage would not open.” (Huxley, 1932, p. 172). The reason John does not go to the party is because he knows it is stupid. He is only loyal to God, something the people of the new world do not understand.
I agree for the most, this book is hard for this topic, the people that are heroes are he people that can point out what's wrong in the society and that are smart. Like Bernard and John.
DeleteVery well put. I like the perspective of good and bad being shades of gray.
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ReplyDeleteThis is a really great example! You can also see maybe where his hatred for heroes came from in the second scene with Unferth and Grendel in the cave. Grendels also feels that the apple fight was one of the most thrilling fights he had up until that moment which is definitely something a villain would enjoy.
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