Can books teach us anything about our leaders and being "other"?
*Argue which tragic elements from your new book and Oedipus Rex are displayed.
*You may wish to compare and to contrast the 2 books you have read (or should now be reading) using Oedipus as the "perfect" tragedy, or perhaps your book isn't a tragedy. You may need to guess....
*What new information have you learned about Sophocles or about tragedy from the REQUIRED database search? Copy/paste this to the end of your blog posting. How may some of this display in your new book?
*You may incorporate feminism, historical elements, comparison to Shakespearian tragedies, hubris, hamartia, catharsis, or any other tragic elements. You may also argue that your book has no tragic elements, but be careful to back up with quotes/evidence.
*We should have most of Oedipus covered by now as well, but if we did not finish in class, add in content we have covered most recently.
I would write on no more than 2 of these topics, but your goal is to maintain and to support your argument. You should be about 1/4 or further into your book. You MAY NOT discuss the end if you are already done.
You may discuss any beginning segments of your new novel, but do not spoil the end of the book (yet). If you need more tragedy elements, please consult our notes, Sophocles notes, and/or the "pure" definition by Aristotle in these 2 websites here and here.
For full credit, you MUST have quotations as support of your points from both texts, you MUST show reading and avoid online summary info, you MUST respond to a minimum of 2 posts. Points will be deducted for those students who wait until the last 12-24 hours, for spelling problems, repeating information already stated, confusing responses, attacking classmates verbally, simply agreeing without saying much of anything, or off-topic commentary.
------APA documentation must be used----
DATABASES (about Oedipus or your book or your author) REQUIRED FOR THIS BLOG, but your argument will be judged harshly, so be prepared to defend yourself!
**This blog will end at 9 a.m. on 10/22. Remember that starting on the last 12-24 hours prior will result in loss of points since your discussion will be limited and last minute
Part 1- Payton Cotey
ReplyDeleteIn the books, Dear Martin and Oedipus The King, many tragic characteristics are displayed. Many of these things are in both books such as starting with a bad omen. In Dear Martin, the first chapter starts with Justyce in handcuffs which has to do with the color of his skin. He was afraid for his life and has developed PTSD from this. Oedipus The King also starts with a bad omen. The start of this play includes a king and a priest deciding how they will help their village after it has been “cursed by the gods” by a deadly disease that spreads easily and everywhere. Other aspects of tragedy in Oedipus The King that are displayed are stasimon, high status, episode, and character of free will. The stasimon in Oedipus The King is shown when the chorus talks about the story so far and chooses a side. One of the times the stasimon is shown is when the chorus says “What is the sweet spoken word of God from the shrine of Pytho rich in gold that has come to glorious Thebes?” ( Sophocles, 2010, p. 17). The chorus is commenting on previous conversations between the community and the king. The next element that is shown is high status. Of course, there is high status in this play, there are many kings involved. The people believed that the kings were gifted from god, so they have high status. King Creon, King Luias, and King Oedipus use their power and high status to help their community. After that is episode. Since the play was first created long ago, the play does not have acts as we would normally see now, instead, it has episodes. Each time the chorus speaks is the end of the episode. Finally, the last aspect I see, although there could be more, is character of free will (to an extent). King Oedipus has sort of a free will when he makes his choices about how he will help the city and how he claims that his mental health has taken damage when the people were sick. In Dear Martin, the element that is shown the most is universality. This book is written to show how universality should be for every book. It shows that the lack of universality has created major issues with racial profiling. This book is created for everyone. The next element is how the main character becomes isolated. I think that Justyce becomes very isolated in his own thoughts when he is discriminated against multiple times and his friend is killed. He writes to Martin multiple times while he is lost in his own thoughts and does not know where to go next.
An example of Justyce becoming isolated is when he writes to Martin, “What the hell are we supposed to do, Martin? What am I supposed to do? Be like Manny and act like there's nothing wrong with a white dude asking his “niggas” to help him exploit a black girl?” (Stone, 2017, p. 95). Then later he says “What do I do when my very identity is being mocked by people who refuse to admit there’s a problem” (Stone, 2017, p. 95). After this, based on how a person's political views are, the audience should have a catharsis. This book shows many times how wrong African-Americans are treated still to this day. As the audience reads the book, the anger and fury grow and the audience should side with Justyce, Manny, the Riverses, SJ, and the others involved in the JAM movement. These legal cases are not being treated as they should be in Dear Martin. Justyce has to deal with many news segments of alleged theories of Jus having a gun, making a threat, or even being in a gang. These parts of the book should make the audience upset and finally realize how bad these people are getting treated. Manny also has hubris, his mistake cost him his life and it was too late. In the middle of the book, Manny is trying to escape his mind and his life for a day by taking a ride in his car with his best friend Justyce. Justyce and Manny are stopped at a red light next to an older man who happens to be white. They have a dispute over the volume of Manny’s music in his car which leads to his unlawful death. Manny’s stubbornness cost him his life when he refused to turn the music down for the man next to him. The man later named Garret Tison, even called them a racial slur. He said, “ YOU WORTHLESS NIGGER SONS OF BITCHES” (Stone, 2017, p. 118). This unfortunately was the point of no return and Manny was killed and Jus was injured badly.
ReplyDeleteThis is Part 2
DeletePart 3- Payton Cotey
ReplyDeleteResearching the Oedipus complex from the play Oedipus The King has helped me see that this story is a tragic myth. The psychology behind this play and Sophocles himself has been analyzed based on the many plot twists in the series of literature that Sophocles writes. With further research, I found out that an Australian scientist named Sigmund Freud based his theory that children who like same-sex partners have hatred towards same-sex parents. Saul McLeod says “The Oedipal complex occurs during the Phallic stage of development (ages 3-6) in which the source of libido (life force) is concentrated in the erogenous zones of the child's body (Freud, 1905). During this stage, children experience an unconscious feeling of desire for their opposite-sex parent and jealousy and envy toward their same-sex parent” (McLeod, 2018). This is based on parts of Oedipus The King that might not be able to be discussed yet. This research goes further into theories that have been tested about rats being attracted to mates who smell like their mothers. It goes many different ways and I am almost overwhelmed with the number of theories that derive from Sophocles’s work. A quote from The Oedipus Complex Made Simple tells how Naomi Morgenstern believes that Sophocles' literature might have been influenced from childhood. He says “I have found, in my own case too, [the phenomenon of] being in love with my mother and jealous of my father, and I now consider it a universal event in early childhood .... If this is so, we can understand the gripping power of Oedipus Rex, in spite of all the objections that reason raises against the presupposition of fate ....” (Morgenstern, 2003). Though many theories came from Sophocles’s work, I find that Sigmund Freud’s research was the most interesting.
References
McLeod, S. A. (2018, September 03). Oedipal complex. Simply Psychology. https://www.simplypsychology.org/oedipal-complex.html
Morgenstern, N. (2003). The Oedipus Complex Made Simple. University of Toronto Quarterly, 72(4), 777–788. https://doi.org/10.3138/utq.72.4.777
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago.
Stone , N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
Part 4- Leadership
DeleteThese characters in the books are shown as leaders, but I don't think they are good ones. Oedipus The King is supposed to be a gift from the gods to his people, but he seems to be keeping secrets and is not truthful. Oedipus killed his father and is with his mother, Oedipus is the father and brother of his children. I think that as a good leader he should be able to come forward and confess to what he has done, even if it means he will lose his power. Justyce in Dear Martin is not shown as a good leader in my opinion either. He is just being pushed around the whole time. Though he cannot do much about the case with Garret Tison, he is always worried about what people think of him and a leader should have independent qualities. If I have learned anything from these books about leadership, it is that it's not as easy as it seems to be a leader or to be considered at "other" like Justyce was.
I disagree. Oedipus is trying to be the best leader he can with the circumstances around him. Because of the feminine the city, Oedipus is under great pressure. Everyone is turning to the king and asking for help. Some ask for help from the God's because they believe it is beyond the King's control. He also became rightful leader after successfully completing the riddle by the sphinx. It is true that he has done some bad things as the king and he refuses to take responsibility for those actions.
DeleteI agree with you Payt about Oedipus and Justyce not being good leaders. I think they both could do better jobs, Justyce could stick up for himself and others like him when people say racist things, and Oedipus he could do a lot different. A good leader stands up for what the believe and Oedipus is a liar and simply not running his city the way he should be. Justyce just needs to be more confident and stand up for himself, other than that he is a fine leader.
DeleteI disagree. I feel as if after he solved the riddle from the Sphinx, he was almost forced into leading a cursed/plagued city because they were in need of a king. I do think he was in the wrong for murdering his own father, but how can he confess if he didn’t know who he killed was for sure his father/the king? Also he never knew who his parents were, so how would he know that it was his mother before having children with her(not trying to make it sound like a good thing haha.) I do agree that Justyce isn’t the best leader and feel that his leadership got worse as time went on.
DeleteBooks teach us to lead by example. Not only does it show things not to do but also things people need to start doing more. A huge concept in our society right now is black lives. I am currently reading Dear Martin by Nic Stone. This book gives amazing examples of how to lead. The main character in the book is Justyce McAllister who is raised in the hood but then attends a private school. He doesn't think much into racism until an incident happens where he is racially profiled and put into handcuffs when all he was doing was helping his drunk ex girlfriend Melo. Justyce then starts noticing racial profiling and things said by his white peers that do not sit right with him. The point I am at is starting to show Justyce getting fed up and wanting to make a change. Justayce thinks to himself this thought “Part of Justayce wants to sdhale Manny.Ask why he cares more about some stupid white-boy party than he does about the unjust death of a guy who looks like him”(Stone,2017,Pg 89).This is one example of justice starting to think about the racial i justs against him. This is also apparent in Opedius written by socilias in a date base saying how that slavery is a biug impact on opedius and how that opedius starts getting writeen and frowned upon because hes from Thebes. To me black people are also frowned upon since they aren't “from” here and they look different. The leader is both Dear Martin and Opedius face challenges because of being different. Yet they don't let it push them down. Both characters fight through these struggles to be the leaders both know they are. Moving on both books are tragedies not as much as Dear Martin but it does have elements to it. Dear Martin starts with a bad omen as Opedius does. In Dear Martin the bad omen is him being handcuffed by the police. I haven't finished the book so I don't know the full effect yet of the triageds may face. Leaders in these books do show how we need to make change in our lives to lead by example.
ReplyDeleteReferences
Stone, N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
Carlisle, T. (2000). Reading the Scars: Rita Dove’s “The Darker Face of the Earth.” African American Review, 34(1), 135–150.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago.
I don't agree with the statement that Justyce is a good leader. Although he is from a different place growing up and has worked for what he has, I believe he could have been more of a leader when it comes to what happened to Manny and the case of Garret Tison v.s Manny and Justyce. I do not think that Justyce does anything that is "leading by example". He simply is lost on what to do while the people who lead JAM are doing things around him. Manny's parents invite him over for dinner and he is uncomfortable the whole time (but it is understandable). He does not show leadership when there are words said about him on the news, his classmates took care of it for him. His questioning during the trial showed how he just let Manny do what he wanted during the shooting. Although he did try to stop Manny multiple times, being a "leader" should have given Justyce more of a push to stop Manny before it was too late. Finally, Justyce seems to rely on his girlfriend to help him out. SJ takes charge during class discussion and seems to be more of a leader than anyone else in the book. She leads the debate and Justyce seems to follow along. I am not sure if it is because Justyce is going through a lot or what but he does not show leadership examples to me.
DeleteI see the elements that you have said in both of these books and agree with it. I would like more of how you think that Oedipus was a leader or not. I do agree that Oedipus does not let himself get down based on what others are saying, but Justyce does. In Oedipus The King, Oedipus is a liar and he is not showing good leadership, leaders should be honest and kind to their community. He should not be selfish and he displays it many times in the play so far. Maybe in the end he will change but as of now he is not showing good leadership to me.
Id like to state I have not gotten that far in Dear Martin which I tried to state in my blog I do like how justice is starting to think more but what is going on around him. In the debate earlier seen in the book he does let SJ talk for him. Yet SJ does come say to him it wasn't her place to talk. I understand why justice won't always speak up since his only black friend also wouldn't he felt like it wasn't gonna help for him to speak up.
DeleteJustyce dint realize it autocorrected.
DeleteI see your point however I would have to disagree. I do not believe that racial injustice or systematic racism is a true issue in America today. Rather it is my belief that when people look for something they see it everywhere, and so when racism is searched for it is seen everywhere. Furthermore I do not believe that African Americans are targets by police. Rather the media focuses primarily on white on black crime. Thus furthering the divide in our country.
DeleteI see how you may say that yet I do not agree that racial injustices rant an issue. I feel black people and many other minorities have such stigmas around them. Lets be real being in the UP we don't see much of these Race issues since there are very few minorities around here. In bigger cities there's a lot more of these injustices. I don't think racism can ever go completely away but I feel we still have lots of work to do. The fact the innocent people get murdered is just never okay. As Americans we need to focus on white on black crime and black on black crime both are issues.
DeleteBooks can provide experiences to help us further understand what it's like to be considered an ‘other’. Many instances that can give insight into their lives, and the day to day struggles they face. In the book I am reading Dear Martin, a white student admits “All I know is that no matter what college I end up at, when I see a minority, I'm gonna wonder if they’re qualified to be there” (Stone, 2017, p. 64). It shows that white people assume that people of color will automatically have lower test scores, and will not actually earn their way into college. Dear Martin also brings to attention the opinion of the opportunities that are available to people of color. “ Gotta stay connected to the white man for the ride to the top” (Stone, 2017, p. 44). Thus implying that it is impossible for a person of color to get to the top of the social ladder, and be treated fairly with all the same opportunities. I learned from my database research that the sphinx wanted revenge. The sphinx was angry that Oedipus answered the riddle right, so the sphinx waited for revenge. When the plague hit and all the reporters were coming to ask questions about how he was being proactive about the situation the sphinx disguised itself as a reporter and in a way brought the murdrr into light. He claimed that Oedipus had killed his father (king Laius), and married his mother. The Oedipus proving to be a true villain immediately starts to formulate who to blame. He was strategic about his choice and blamed a foreigner named Freud.
ReplyDeleteReferences
Andrei Comea, & Mihaela Mudure. (2010). Oedipus and the Sphinx. World Literature Today, 84(5), 37.
Stone, N. (2017). Dear martin. Crown.
I agree 100% that the African-American characters in Dear Martin are seen as "other". Justyce and Manny are no doubt treated differently, especially by their classmates Jared, Blake, Tyler, and even at some points Manny (when he goes along with them). They believe that the racial injustice of America does not exist, but they do not have the skin color to make that a fact. If they had experienced what Justyce and Manny did, they would not say all of the stuff that they had. Many times, those boys made comments and Manny and Justyce finally had enough. Just as Manny had separated from his group of white friends and him and Justyce had made up, things went south. This incident was also an example of those boys being considered "other" and it happened because of their skin color. The information from the database is also new to me. I think that it is interesting how the sphinx had kind of called out Oedipus in a way that was the truth. Oedipus could be the real villain in this play. The sphinx as of right now is seen as the villain but this could change as we read further. We also recently found out how Oedipus kills his father and he is with his mother and is the father and brother to his children. All of it is obviously foreign to us because it is illegal and morally wrong. However, it is kind of neat to learn about this and see how Oedipus's brain works while he tries to lie his way through everything just to keep his power.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteBoth Oedipus: The King by Sophocles and A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini express elements of a tragedy. However, I believe A Thousand Splendid Suns better displays the themes of sorrow. Hosseini’s novel is a tale of heartbreak, grief, misery, and the ability to endure. The book describes the lives of two Afgan women, Miriam the illegitimate daughter of Jhild, and Lilan, the dutiful daughter of loving parents. Both of the girls, however, would suffer more than one could possibly imagine. Mariam was raised by her ill mother, secluded from most of society for years. After her mother’s suicide at age fifteen, her father married her to a large, old, disgusting man hundreds of miles away from home. She was beaten, mocked, endured seven miscarriages, was forced to wear a burqa, and suffered for years. Laila, was just fourteen when she married the same man, and it was not out of desire. Her parents were killed in an explosion of the surrounding war, and she was pregnant with her dead lover’s child. She had no choice but to marry a man and claim the child as his, otherwise, she was bound to be murdered. For ten years The pair of wives endured every level of cruelty from their husband, and when the Taliban took over Afghanistan, they endured much more. Their lives turned out just as Mariam’s mother had predicted all those years ago, “it’s our lot in life, Mariam. Women like us. We endure. It’s all we have”. (Hosseini, 2007, pg. 19).
ReplyDeleteDespite The sorrow riddled in the words of Sophocles’ Oedipus: The King, it does not compare to the horrors of Hosseini’s characters. The play follows the life of the esteemed king, Oedipus. He is viewed as a noble king who bravely slew to despised Sphynx. Unfortunately, his city of Thebes was under the curse of a terrible plague. It had touched everything from the land, food, people, and water. He calls for his brother-in-law, Creon, to shed some light on the illness. Creon explains how the previous king, Laius, had been murdered years before, thus the gods took revenge on the people for their inability to catch the killer. Oedipus commands his citizens to,” drive him from their homes since he is our pollution, as the oracle of Pytho’s God proclaimed him to me.” (Sophocles, 2010, pg.20) Unfortunately for the king, Teiresias reveals that Oedipus has accidentally killed not only the king but his father as well, as they were the same person. After his ascension to the throne, Oedipus even married his own mother and impregnated her.
When looking at the themes of a tragedy: downfall, death, politics, hubris, fate, heavenly intervention, and realization, A Thousand Splendid Suns clearly has more examples than Oedipus: The King. Despite the play showing politics, hubris, and heavenly intervention; it does not show the level of sorrow shown in the book. Mariam and Laila together endure the loss of their parents, the death of their friends, they fall from their place, the hubris of their husband, the terror of the war, and even arguably the divine intervention of Allah. Furthermore, the sister wives faced very realistic issues whilst Oedipus’s love triangle was far from practical. They were forced into child marriage, this is an issue that is very common in the middle east. According to the University of Punjab,” The rate of child marriages in Pakistan is still high and prevalent factors relate to religion”(Ambreen, Aziz, Zulifiqar, & Abas, 2021). The whole of the novel is a reflection of the horrors Afgan women have faced, and Oedipus simply does not rival their pain.
Ambereen, B., Aziz, L., Khan, A. M., Zulifiqar, T., & Abas, Z. (2021). Child Marriage: Challenges & Issues in Policy Making and Implementation in Pakistan. Retrieved October 20, 2021, from https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=4&sid=1ec4dd92-f4b8-4b91-a231-bbeea3ecf27b%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=151374932&db=ehh.
I completely agree that A Thousand Splendid Suns expressed more elements of a tragedy. Everything you mentioned about what the wives had to endure in my opinion strongly supports your claim. I also like how you mentioned that the book is a reflection of what Afgan women have faced. In my opinion Oedipus is not a tragedy, I think it is merely a story about a selfish king that craved power.
DeleteI agree with your statement about how A Thousand Splendid Sun's showed a sorrow side of tragedy, but I also believe that Oedipus was sort of along the same path, just in a different way. After the death of Nana Mariam crys and mourns with people that she cares about, while Oedipus gets extremely angry at Theirus for even bringing up that Oedipus killed his own father. In both these circumstances the main characters were going through rough tragedies, but they took their emotions different ways.
DeleteI believe that both Dear Martin and Oedipus are tragedies. In the first chapter of the book Dear Martin, Justyce is in trouble with the police because of his color. He is a good kid, his ex-girlfriend Melo was drunk and trying to drive, he took her keys and tried to help her into the back of her car to bring her home, she was screaming which attracted the police, so they instantly thought he was in the wrong and put him in handcuffs. The cop says, “I know your kind: punks like you wander the streets of nice neighborhoods searching for prey. Just couldn’t resist the pretty white girl who locked her keys in her car, could ya?” (Stone, 2017, p. 8). He tried to tell the cop he was a misunderstanding but wouldn’t believe him whether he was telling the truth because he isn’t white. So he got put in jail for no reason. Now Justyce is constantly afraid that he will be the next black guy shot for doing nothing wrong. I feel like he has had PTSD since he got arrested. I believe that if Justyce were white, he would not have been arrested that night. In both the play Oedipus and the book Dear Martin there are leaders. Oedipus, in my opinion, is an awful leader; he is a liar. Leaders do not lie; they are supposed to be honest and run their city with loyalty. Justyce in Dear Martin, I wouldn't say he is the best leader but better than Oedipus. Justyce is in a school with only eight black kids, which is going to be difficult. He struggled to stick up to Jared and should have said something to Blake for his Halloween costume. But he knows what is right and wrong, and he writes that when he talks to Martin. The blind man Theseus in Oedipus does not lie, so when he says he does not kill King Laius, he is telling the truth. I found in my database that he did kill his father and married his mother. I discovered that he also killed an older man. I feel like a leader should not be killing people, and if they are, someone else should take over.
ReplyDeleteReferences
Stone, N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
Fosso, K. (2012). Oedipus Crux: Reasonable Doubt in “Oedipus the King.” College Literature, 39(3), 26–60. https://doi.org/10.1353/lit.2012.0025
I completely agree of your opinion about Oedipus. He is a terrible king, and frankly I also think he lacks good leadership qualities. He is a fraud and leading the people to their demise in my opinion. I disagree though, I think that Justyce in Dear Martin is a fine leader. He does know right from wrong, and also you have to take into account his age. Not many people at that age can be outspoken like you expect a leader to be. I think he is growing into his role, and as he experiences things that he will get better.
DeleteI agree about your statements on Dear Martin. Especially the fact Justyce isn't the greatest leader but he makes way more of an effort than Oedipus. I do think it is hard for Justyce to reach his full potential as a leader as you stated there's only 8 black kids one being Manny who so far where I am reading just agrees with his white friends. Its hard for Justyce to speak up when the majority will be against him. Great post I do agree with most points you made.
DeleteI agree that if Justyce was white he would have never been put in that situation.Some evidence backing up your statement about Justyce constantly being afraid that he will be shot for no reason is ¨I keep thinkin´ that coulda been me. What if that cop thought I had a gun?¨.(Stone, 2017,pg.89) That was Justyce talking about how Tavarrius was unarmed but was still shot and killed by a cop.
DeleteI love that you addressed the fact that if Justyce were white, he would not have been arrested. I agree with your outlook on leaders as well. A leader should not lie, and should do things for the people he/she is leading, rather than for themselves. It is incredibly tragic that he has to live in fear and is treated differently. I have to ask though, is this discrimination more TRAGIC than what Oedipus had gone through. I feel like what happened to Justyce is definitely saddening. But in the sense of tragedy I think Oedipus takes the cake over this story.
DeleteI agree about Justyce not being a good leader. Although he has goo qualities of becoming a good leader like knowing what is right and wrong and knowing about the issues that happen in the world, he just doesn't really act on them, and for that reason, he would not make a good leader.
DeleteBooks can provide experiences to help us further understand what it's like to be considered an ‘other’. Many instances that can give insight into their lives, and the day to day struggles they face. In the book I am reading Dear Martin, a white student named Jared admits “All I know is that no matter what college I end up at, when I see a minority, I'm gonna wonder if they’re qualified to be there” (Stone, 2017, p. 64). It shows that white people assume that people of color will automatically have lower test scores, and will not actually earn their way into college. I personally do not feel that way, but I like the way the author brings that viewpoint of inequality in some peoples’ mindsets. It definitely calls attention to me about how wrong it is. Dear Martin also brings to attention the opinion of the opportunities that are available to people of color. “ Gotta stay connected to the white man for the ride to the top” (Stone, 2017, p. 44). Thus implying that it is impossible for a person of color to get to the top of the social ladder, and be treated fairly with all the same opportunities. I think that society is not fair to people of color, and they are often mistreated and stereotyped. I learned from my database research that the sphinx wanted revenge. The sphinx was angry that Oedipus answered the riddle right, so the sphinx waited for revenge. When the plague hit and all the reporters were coming to ask questions about how he was being proactive about the situation the sphinx disguised itself as a reporter and in a way brought the murdrr into light. He claimed that Oedipus had killed his father (king Laius), and married his mother. The Oedipus proving to be a true villain immediately starts to formulate who to blame. He was strategic about his choice and blamed a foreigner named Freud.
ReplyDeleteReferences
Andrei Comea, & Mihaela Mudure. (2010). Oedipus and the Sphinx. World Literature Today, 84(5), 37.
Stone, N. (2017). Dear martin. Crown.
I agree. My book is very similar because the daughter's are colored, so automatically they have to work harder than everyone else just to be considered equal. I agree that it has brought attention to me particularly because I was not aware of the privilege I had in comparison. In the story Oedipus, we discover that Oedipus kills his father. He does immediately place blame on others rather than taking responsibility. But is there a particular reason he has done this? Oedipus is just now realizing he truly doesn't know who his family is.Oedipus may not be all to blame. First of all he answers the riddle correctly, causing him to become king. The revenge placed by the Sphinx is unfair to Oedipus because he correctly guessed the riddle. Oedipus is still trying to discover who his family is and why there is a famine throughout the city.
DeleteI 100% agree with you on everything you said.I am also reading Dear Martin, and some of it just makes me so frustrated. I hate how Justyce did not stick up to Jared or Blake when they said or did rude things towards another race. I think it is wrong that many white people instantly jump so say black people are more likely to do this or that or that statistics say this, I just think that is wrong for us as humans to do. I know when I look at someone I do not see them for their color of skin, I am just not that kind of person.
DeleteI like how you brought up how the book specifically gives the view point of Jared who thinks that it isn't fair that minorities get extra benefits that he doesn't get, without caring about why minorities need the support in the first place. One thing in particular that I didn't like was how Manny would rarely do anything to stand up against his friends, except for maybe a couple words here or there.
DeleteWhat year or time period does dear martin take place in?. Are the remarks you used as proof remarks showing ideology still used today or the ideology we as a society have pushed to abolish?
DeletePart One
ReplyDeleteThere are multiple tragic elements from Oedipus Rex and The Ditchdigger’s Daughter. Oedipus Rex starts as a tragedy. King Laius was murdered, supposedly by murderers. Because of this, a famine is spread throughout the city. Oedipus becomes the king, by solving the riddle of the Sphinx. As we continue to read, we realize Oedipus is not innocent. Teiresias is a blind man who knows the future and accuses Oedipus of killing the king. Because of Teiresias and his questioning, Oedipus becomes upset because he does not want to be accused of killing the king. So, instead of taking responsibility, he blames Teiresias’s temper. Oedipus states, “ You would provoke a stone! Tell us you villain, tell us, and do not stand there quietly, unmoved and balking the issue.” In reply, Teiresias says, “You blame my temper but you do not see your own that lives within you; it is me you chide.”( Sophocles, 2010, page 24.) So, Oedipus struggles to take responsibility for his actions. As we discover further into the novel, the readers learn, “ We observed that Oedipus displayed symptoms of his complex through the traits of aggressiveness and arrogance.” (Röhe, D., Martins, F., & Conceição, M. I. G. (2020). Oedipus goes to the opera: Psychoanalytic inquiry in Enescu’s Œdipe and Stravinsky’s Oedipus Rex.) Oedipus has power issues and refuses to take responsibility for the actions he hides. The tragic elements in The Ditchdigger’s Daughter are significant. The novel is about a black family living in poverty. The parents continuously work as hard as they can to ensure their six daughters will be successful people. The father is a ditch digger and wants his children to become doctors so they will finally be taken seriously. I truly didn’t believe there would be any tragic elements involved in this novel. However, the first quote of the book proved me wrong. Yvonne’s father states, “ You kids are black, Daddy sometimes said to us. You are dark-skinned and ugly.’’ (Yvonne, 1995, page 3) Throughout the book, the daughters are consistently discriminated against. For example, each daughter plays an instrument in a band. In a contest they competed in, the band wins multiple times. Instead of receiving their award right away, they receive the money after performing several times all because of the color of their skin. Each member of their family is definitely treated differently and has to constantly work harder than everyone else just because they are black. For example, she states, “ Practice and study. Study and practice. That’s all we ever did. Friends, dates, social life, none of that ever existed for us.” (Yvonne, 1995, page 67)This significantly shows that they do not have the privilege nor the opportunity as others around them, so they had to work harder than everyone else just to be equal.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteIn comparison, Oedipus is about a selfish, aggressive king who wants to remain in power while also continuing to find out the truth behind his family. He is short-tempered and demands to know who murdered the king, his father. Truly he is hiding his responsibility and blaming everyone else around him so he can remain in power. Teiresias says, “ I say you are the murderer of the king whose murderer you seek.” And Oedipus reply’s saying “ Not twice you shall say calumnies like this and stay unpunished.” (Sophocles, 2010, page 26) He wants to blame Teiresias even though Teiresias knows the truth and can not lie to the King. Comparably, The Ditchdigger’s Daughter is much different. The family is treated unfairly in every way because of the color of their skin. Instead of getting upset at everyone else, the father has taught his daughters to simply work much harder. He convinces each of his daughters to become doctors and attend medical school, in hopes one day his daughters will be taken seriously. He says to the girls “ It don't matter. You get A’s in college, you can go anyplace. I tried to argue with him further, he walked away. I said to myself, Well, maybe Daddy knows something I don't know.” (Yvonne, 1995, page 112) By comparing the two novels, the reader can see that Oedipus, the selfish and powerful king, doesn’t want to take responsibility blames others for his faults. In The Ditchdigger’s Daughter, each take takes full responsibility for their education and talents and they are consistently being placed below others just because they are black. The children work hard to earn equality where Oedipus isn’t taking care of his people in the city and does not take responsibility for his actions.
References:
Thornton, Y. S., & Coudert, J. (1994). The Ditchdigger's Daughters: A daughter's journey to fulfill a father's Legacy: A memoir. Carol Pub. Group.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University Of Chicago.
Röhe, D., Martins, F., & Conceição, M. I. G. (2020). Oedipus goes to the opera: Psychoanalytic inquiry in Enescu’s Œdipe and Stravinsky’s Oedipus Rex
Eridinn i agree with your argument other than the part that saying who killed my father he did not know that it was the King/his father when he killed him and when he was asking who killed him until later in the play when he finds out and feel guilty and cuts his eyes out and asked to be exiled from thebes
Delete
ReplyDelete*You may wish to compare and to contrast the 2 books you have read (or should now be reading) using Oedipus as the "perfect" tragedy, or perhaps your book isn't a tragedy. You may need to guess....
Both of my books I read are tragedies. My first book was Oedipus The King and my second is Dear Martin, Both of the books are so tragic in different ways but both tragedies. They both start with a bad omen in Dear Justyce he gets handcuffed and detained for helping a girl and is wrongly charged/arrested or whatever you would call it. And in Oedipus The king gets killed by his son Oedipus but no one knows who it was, and no one sees who has killed King Laius. “When he was a child in his native Corinth, a fortune-teller prophesied that Oedipus would murder his father and marry his mother. To avoid committing these sins, he fled Corinth for Thebes as a young man. There, he defeated the Sphinx by solving its riddle and was rewarded with both the throne and the wife of the late King Laius, who had been murdered shortly before under mysterious circumstances.”(SANDEFUR, T. (2021).Sophocles. Just explaining why he killed King Laius and with that information it adds on onto why knows he killed his father the King. These books both have a tremendous amount of tragedy in them and that is why they are similar but they are different because Dear justyce is a racial movement or a teaching book on some of the things an african-american face in there lifetime.
*What new information have you learned about Sophocles or about tragedy from the REQUIRED database search? Copy/paste this to the end of your blog posting. How may some of this display in your new book?
New information I read was Jocasta is Oedipus’s real mother and that she had ordered a servant to abandon him on a hill when he was a newborn, after she learned he would grow up to kill his father and after that when Oedipus does realize he killed his father/King Jocasta hangs herself and Oedipus cuts his eyeballs out before trying to be kicked out of thebes. And from reading a database it proves that Tiresias is right about who Oedipus’s parents are and knows what's going to happen before it happens apollo says King Laius family line is to end in punishment for kidnapping and raping of one of his students, Chrysippus is the name of the student. In many of Sophocles' plays they seem to link together in kind of a behind the scenes way, very subtle. They are all tragedies. Some of it displays in my new book in different ways but very similar like Manny was being hubris like Oedipus and him and justyce were at a stop light and a guy told them to turn the music down and used profanity and they didn't and got shot by a off duty cop because he recognize him from when he tried to arrest him for helping his ex girlfriend.
SANDEFUR, T. (2021). Sophocles: Oedipus the King, A New Verse Translation. Objective Standard: A Journal of Culture & Politics, 16(2), 102–106.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago.
Stone , N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
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ReplyDeletePersonally, I do believe books can teach us about our leaders and being “other”. The book I am currently reading is Dear Martin by Nic Stone and the play is Oedipus The King by Sophocles. The main character in Dear Martin is Justcye McAllister and while he is not the best leader so far, he is better than Oedipus. A leader is someone who will step up to help make a change even in difficult times. I think that Justyce cares a lot about what others think and this is a setback for him becoming a “good” leader. However, he still is trying his best. He says to Doc, “For the past six months, I’ve been studying Dr. King’s stuff again and trying to apply it?” (Stone, 2017, pg. 101). During those past six months, he has faced or heard about many situations where people of his color have been killed for doing nothing more than trying to help someone in need. Due to all of this racial profiling he has experienced not only from the world but his peers, there is no wonder why being a “good” leader is a little difficult. Justyce does have the leadership quality of responsibility, unlike Oedipus. Justyce messed up and fought with his peers because he was standing up for himself and black folks altogether. When he sobered up, he realized what he had done wrong and as he was talking with Doc, Doc said, “Sounds to me like you’re ‘taking responsibility.’ That’s tenet four of the B-Prep honor code, isn’t it?” (Stone, 2017, pg. 102). As for Oedipus, he has not taken responsibility for the plague that has affected their city. He is finally starting to get out of the denial stage after Teiresias says, “I say you are the murder of the king whose murderer you seek.” (Sophocles, 2010, pg. 26). However as a “good” leader, they would put others first and at the moment, Oedipus has not done that. If he is really a leader he should step down as king.
ReplyDeleteIn my database research, I have found that Oedipus was left on a mountain to die by his parents, Laius and Jocasta because he threatened a prophecy. The two shepherds who found him had named him Oedipus because of his swollen feet. After a while, he was adopted by the king and queen of Corinth, Polybus and Merope. As he got older, he questioned his birth and origin, and ultimately that is when his life really started to change. These events may even be reasons why he is not a great leader.
References
Mahony, P. (2010). The Oedipus Rex of Sophocles and psychoanalysis. International Journal of
Applied Psychoanalytic Studies, 7(4), 290–306. https://doi-org.snc.idm.oclc.org/10.1002/aps.247
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago.
Stone, N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
I like how you included the fact that Justyce took accountability for his actions. A leader can only truly be great if they admit they are wrong and learn from their mistakes, as opposed to letting all of his mistakes bottle up until they crumble down, which is probably where Oedipus is heading.
DeleteI do agree with the point that Justyce is a better leader, but I think you should factor in how much pressure they both are under. While Justyce is dealing with racial profiling, Oedipus is as trying to heal a corrupted land, was disowned by his parents as a child, and just being confused in general. While I am not quite done with Dear Martin and his leadership may change, his leadership does dies down when he stops writing to martin and the incident with Manny. I feel like as we continue to read Oedipus he will somehow be punished and maybe not be quite as cocky/confident as he currently is.
DeleteOedipus is a decent leader upfront, but a terrible person otherwise.
ReplyDeleteBased on what we have already read into Oedipus he is a decent leader, although he definitely has some flaws. From what we have read in class he has already shown to the people that he deserves to be the leader of Thebes. In answering the Sphinx's riddle, he saved the entire city, which should make you worthy of being the king. Another reason for the people to believe that Oedipus deserves to be king is that if he wasn't the rightful king, then wouldn't the gods intervene, since they were the ones to pick the king of Thebes.
Despite these accomplishments, he has done some pretty messed up things, like sleeping with his own mother. At the point that we got to in the play, we learn that Oedipus killed his own father, Laius, but after further research it turns out he was destined to. As it turns out Laius had violent feelings for another king named Pelops' son, Chrysippus. Laius didn't care to ask for either Pelops' or Chrysippus' consent and kidnapped Chrysippus, which so Pelops' cursed Laius. "The enraged Pelops therefore laid upon Laius the curse that his own son should slay him." (Edmunds, L. & Dundes, A., 1995, pg.218). So all in all, he is a decent leader with some flaws that weren't really his fault if you believe in destiny, but we can't really forgive him choosing to sleep with his mom.
Justyce, in comparison to Oedipus, is an infinitely better person, and also has all the traits to be a better leader. Justyce actually has good morals and actively works towards keeping himself and others informed. Justyce even goes into the state final of doubles debate team in front of a panel of judges to talk about racial discrimination and race crimes, even if he knew his partner and him could lose the tournament. "That's when Jus realizes that SJ was right: whether not they win this tournament, he needed to talk about this in a public forum." (Stone, Nic. 2017, pg. 80).
References
Edmunds, L., & Dundes, A. (1995). Oedipus : a folklore casebook. University of Wisconsin Press.
Sophocles (2010) Oedipus The King. The University Of Chicago.
Stone, Nic. (2017) Dear Martin. Crown.
I LOVE that you noted Justyce is a much better person and leader. I do believe Justyce has all the right intentions. I could not say the same about Oedipus.
DeleteI like how you said Justyce is not only a better person but leader than Oedipus. I just think that he cares more about his community and his kind more than oedipus cares about his city. I don't exactly see oedipus as a leader. I like the points you made but I believe that even after it was his fate to kill his father he could've still changed it.
DeleteI really like that you listed some good qualities of Oedipus as a leader, because he was not totally incapable of leading his people. As many other leaders, he was in no way perfect. However, he was actually skilled in certain circumstances. Also, I agree entirely that Justyce is a much better person than Oedipus, and has many traits pointing towards him being able to be as great leader.
DeleteI agree the Justyce is a better leader than Oedipus. While Oedipus does fit his role, he commonly acted out of selfishness and was greedy. While he earned his role as king, he did not work hard to keep it. Often you could assume that Oedipus had ill intent. I like how you listed the good things about Oedipus before saying the horrible things that he had done. In my opinion, despite saving the city, these things out way his achievements. Justyce is indefinitely a better person overall.
DeleteI agree with you when you mention that Oedipus had enough leadership qualities to be a good ruler for the time that he was on the throne, but he seems to be doing it only for his own power, not the greater good of the people. If he was only leading for his own benefit, does that truly make him a good leader?
DeleteIn comparison, I believe that Oedipus has a more clear start to help me figure that it will be a tragedy. In Native Son, the beginning starts off somewhat rocky but still leaves me guessing if it will be a tragedy. For example, in Oedipus, there is a vast sickness and everyone is dying and thinks it is some sort of karma for the death of King Laius. Oedipus even knows that there is a blight because he says “I know you are all sick, yet there is not one of you, sick though you are, that is as sick as I myself.” (Sophocles, 2010, p. 13). Oedipus seems to be oblivious as to what to do in such a hard time and I believe that this is foreshadowing an even worse ending, resulting in tragedy. In Native Son, right from the beginning there are family issues and conflicts. The mother seems to be pretty tough on Bigger and I think this is because he is very immature and needs that push to become a better person. The mother gets so frustrated and even says “Bigger, sometimes I wonder why I birthed you.” (Wright, 1940, p. 6). Bigger is always brushing off his family's comments and still continues to be immature and disrespectful. After telling his mother he would finally take a job to help support his family, he leaves the house and contemplates not taking the job and begins to plan out a robbery with some of his other delinquent friends. Although he doesn’t go through with the robbery, Bigger is insecure and always has a constant urge to do things that aren’t right. In Native Son, the author states “As long as he could remember, he had never been responsible for anyone. The moment a situation became so that it exacted something of him, he rebelled. That was the way he lived; he passed his days trying to defeat or gratify powerful impulses in a world he feared.” (Wright, 1940, p. 47). From just the beginning of the story, I think Native son has tragic elements but is not a true tragedy like Oedipus.
ReplyDeleteI researched how to kill a sphinx. The sphinx is often referred to as “the strangler.” A person could be considered a hero for killing the creature. Oedipus was this hero and he did not have to use physical force or pain to follow through with the death. He had to use his mind power and thinking skills. A person must use reasoning and reflection and things like meditation and therapy to their external irrational fears into internal objects that can be confronted. Oedipus had to solve the sphinx's riddle to get rid of it and get him into Thebes. This goes to show how powerful the mind can really be.
References:
Rojcewicz, S. (2018). How to Kill a Sphinx. Delos: A Journal of Translation and World Literature, 33(2), 116.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago .
Wright, R. (1940). Native Son. Harper & Brothers.
I do agree with you that Oedipus has a clear start considering there was a plague in the city. Although, Oedipus is oblivious during this hard time, I still think he knows right from wrong because he has saved the city once before.
DeleteI agree. Even though Oedipus has saved the city once before, I think he is the possible reason that the city needs saving again and that is why he has not taken action this time around.
DeleteIn my opinion, both, Dear Martin and Oedipus are tragedies. Although, Oedipus is a perfect tragedy because killing takes place along with other tragic elements. There are many tragic elements displayed in Oedipus; one being a fatal flaw. In Oedipus, he is hubris. He takes pride in himself and is overly confident. For example, when talking to Teiresias, Oedipus says “I solved the riddle by my wit alone.” (Sophocles, 2010, line 399). From the database, I learned that Oedipus displays fatal flaws by failing in the end. “Nevertheless, I have argued that he did not succeed in this mission. He ended up falling, almost certainly against his will, into two tendencies of traditional philosophy: an apocalyptic reading of history and the employment of the evidence from the historical sciences to put together grand narratives with ontological pretensions.” (Pestana and Luis, 2020).
ReplyDeleteThe tragic element displayed in Dear Martin is high status because in Chapter one the police officer handcuffed Justyce. The police officer thinks he is of a higher status than Justyce because of his skin color. Justyce tries to tell him that he is not understanding the situation, “Officer, this is a big misunderstanding--.” (Stone, 2017, page 7). Even though Justyce is just trying to take care of Melo because she is drunk. The officer says to Justyce, “Don’t you say shit to me, you son of a bitch. I knew your punk ass was up to no good when I saw you walking down the road with that goddamn hood on.” (Stone, 2017, page 8). As you can see here, the police officer does not care to hear Justyce’s side of the story. He believes that he is at a much higher status than Justyce.
Pestana, M., & Luis, J. (2020). Oedipus Rex as a philosophical and political strategy. Oedipus Rex as a Philosophical and Political Strategy. https://doi.org/https://eds.s.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=4&sid=571acbdf-234d-4c25-99e8-cd31f5305eed%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#AN=145198046&db=sih
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago Press.
Stone, N. (2017). Dear Martin . Crown.
I have no clue why my citation got spaced like that once I published it.
DeleteJenna, I love your point of view! I would have never have thought of the police displaying the "higher status", but I'm so glad you mentioned it, because you are right on the target. Even Garrett Tison feels as if he has the higher status when he thinks he can tell Manny and Justyce to turn their music down, and the unfortunate events that occur afterward. I would also have to agree that Oedipus has more consistent elements of the "perfect tragedy", as it starts with bad omen, high status, and many more elements that made it a classic. Very well said.
DeleteThat was Morgan
DeleteLori
ReplyDeleteFor my database research I discovered why Oedipus was basically thrown away by his parents. There was a prophecy saying that their son would kill Laius so they sent him far away hoping this fate would not come true.
Resources
Storr, F. (1912). Oedipus Trilogy : Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus & Antigone. Mulva Library Catalog. Retrieved October 20, 2021, from https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=4&sid=960e144b-1c7b-4276-8d93-853e75fae4a8%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#db=cat08312a&AN=snc.476156278.
*Argue which tragic elements from your new book and Oedipus Rex are displayed.
ReplyDeleteEvery book has a certain type of genre that it carries out through the duration of the story. Whether it is a comedy, a horror, a tragedy, or even a combination of multiple genres; they are all used to draw the audience in. After diving into both Dear Martin and Oedipus Rex, I found that they had displayed tragic elements that evoked empathy, frustration, pity, and fear into me. Dear Martin really grasped my interest and never let it go; even now, after finishing the book, I am still left wondering how the characters' lives are playing out in the future. This book did a great job in portraying the difficulties of fitting in and “making a life” for yourself as a person of color (specifically black). The main character, Justyce, is a black teenager that grew up in the hood, but later became a full-scholarship student at Braselton Preparatory Academy in Atlanta, Georgia in order to become something of himself. The beginning of the book started with a tragic event that snapped Justyce back to reality. A policeman saw, what he thought, a carjacking in progress. This is not true at all, Justyce was trying to help his ex-girlfriend, Melo (who was drunk), get home safely. Despite what Justyce had to say for himself, the policeman only had one thing running through his mind. He wanted to arrest this black man “a criminal” for what he thought was a carjacking. The reality was that he was looked upon as being the “stereotypical” black person, and it didn’t matter how much effort he put into school or the way he dressed...It wasn’t going to change. “All I can think of now is ‘How different would things have gone had I not been a black guy?’ I know initially the cop could only go by what he saw (which prolly did seem a little sketchy), but I’ve never had my character challenged like that before” (Stone, 2017,p.12). That is the big tragedy that sets off a chain of other tragic events in the future pertaining to the color of skin a person has. I didn’t want to tell anymore events that happen later on in the book because I don’t want to spoil it for anyone.
Oedipus Rex is more of a tragedy overall then Dear Martin is. Oedipus starts off this story with the murder of his father. He refuses to believe that he killed him in order to take the throne and become king. So, right from the start I got a bad feeling about Oedipus and what his final intentions of becoming king were. “ Given that reading, the chorus is saying that Oedipus’ position of power has made him or will eventually make him succumb to hubris” (Sophocles, 2011, p. 53). Overall I enjoyed reading both of these books, but I lean more towards Oedipus Rex as being the better tragedy.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago.
Stone , N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
Sophocles (2011). Oedipus rex. ProQuest Ebook Central https://ebookcentral.proquest.com
*Argue which tragic elements from your new book and Oedipus Rex are displayed.
ReplyDeleteBoth “A Thousand Splendid Suns” and “Oedipus Rex” are very tragic books that have many shocking and awful things that happen to the characters. “A Thousand Splendid Suns” is a much more modern form of tragedy that people may have an easier time understanding how deeply impactful these circumstances can be. One of the largest tragedies in “A Thousand Splendid Suns” so far, is Mariam’s mother committing suicide when Mariam is only 15. “A gust of wind blew and parted the drooping branches of the weeping willow like a curtain, and Mariam caught a glimpse of what was beneath the tree: the straight-backed chair, overturned. The rope dropping from a high branch. Nana dangling from the end of it.” (Hosseini, 2007, Pg. 36). This action is brought on after Mariam attempts to spend the day with her father at the movies. A shows one of the major struggles that begins Mariam’s life of certain tragedy. This is the tragic element of loss, causing our characters grief over the loss of Nana.
“Oedipus Rex” also has major tragic elements within the storyline; but, while it still has elements that modern people can understand and empathize with, it definitely has more of a fantasy-style feel. Of course, the fantasy that I am referring to is the prophet of Apollo, Tiresias. I definitely wouldn’t say that we currently have people running around the world telling people their future and what they will do in their lifetime. Even though there are some plot elements that are not inherently “modern” for people to relate to, there is one rather large thing that I know that we all can understand. The plague that is currently ravaging the city. People dying in the streets, women not being able to give birth, sickness everywhere. Sounds pretty familiar? This is an extremely large tragedy that we see everyone suffering through, not just the main characters. “A God that carries fire, a deadly pestilence, is on own town” (Sophocles, Grene, 2010, Pg 12) This awful devastation is what begins our play and starts to tell us about what our characters are going through. This is the tragic element of catastrophe, causing our characters harm over what is happening around them.
*What new information have you learned about Sophocles or about tragedy from the REQUIRED database search? Copy/paste this to the end of your blog posting. How may some of this display in your new b
Something that was written about in the database that I read was that Sophocles’ goal was writing Oedipus to be a voice of reason. But at this point in time, I really don’t think that he is. So far in the book he has screamed at a blind man for him speaking about his parents, and his mother that he is sleeping with. He also gets mad when Tiresias has suspicions about Oedipus after he takes over not just the throne, but also steals the dead King’s wife. At this point, Oedipus seems more like a voice of rage instead of reason.
Parray, A. H. (2013). A Postmodern Interpretation of Oedipus Rex. Language in India, 13(10), 106–111.
Hosseini, K. (2007). A Thousand Splendid Suns. ATSS Publications.
Sophocles, & Grene, D. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago Press.
"A Thousand Splendid Suns" sounds like a really good book that mixes tragic elements and a good story together seamlessly. I also agree with you about how Oedipus probably isn't a good voice of reason, mostly because he is the king. There always seems to be some sort of societal disconnect when you have someone of a higher status than the common people. Alongside that, Oedipus does seem a bit immature, what with him yelling at a blind dude.
DeleteI think books, especially books and plays that are classics from the ancient times, can absolutely teach us about our leaders then, and even reflect on how they rule and lead now. In “Oedipus: The King,” Sophocles portrays Oedipus as a leader who tends to say what the people want to hear, even if it may not be the truth. He does not seem overly confident leading his people through this plague, and when Teresias accuses him of killing Laius, he becomes cowardly and defensive towards the demigod.
ReplyDeleteBoth Dear Martin and “Oedipus: The King” show several tragic elements from the very beginning. In Dear Martin, Justyce has made his way out of “the hood” and is attending a great school named Braselton Prep in which the tuition and education is only for the well off. This shows that though he has some form of high status, he is still mistreated and considered an “other.” I also feel as if Justyce loses everything when he loses his best friend Manny, almost dies, and Sarah-Jane (the girl he falls in love with), avoids him. He feels as if he’s at an all time low, which symbolizes the tragedy in the story. His classmates, Kyle, Tyler, Blake, and Jared, show the hubris trait by constantly thinking they are better than Justyce because of the color of their skin. In the play, Oedipus obviously has the high status of being king and ruling his people. I also believe that he displays influenced decisions by only stating and doing what appeals to his people instead of deciding on his own what is right and what is wrong. He obviously has more than one fatal flaw, and I am not sure which is worse: killing the king who is his father, or sleeping with his mother. In the database “Sophocle’s Oedipus Rex: A Deconstructive Study,” the author discusses the Sophocle’s use of the Greek Gods to foretell the story. “However, the function of the Delphic Oracle of Apollo is to foretell the fortune of the ancient Greek people. For example, she foretells that the new born son of the King Laius and Queen Jocasta will commit patricide and incest in the play ‘Oedipus Rex’.” (Akhter et al., 2015, p. 13).
I would say that though Dear Martin is a devastating read, “Oedipus: The King” has so far shown more sign of a true classical tragedy. Without spoiling the end of Dear Martin, I want to simply state that it is different than that of what one would expect in a tragedy. I truly do not know the end of Sophocle’s play, but I have a feeling it will not be good. Considering it is one of the most famous tragedies worldwide, I can make a guess on a dramatic ending that is shocking or upsetting. Don’t get me wrong, as I do feel that Justyce undergoes some heartbreaking trials in this tearjerking novel, but I think that Oedipus is going to give us the “perfect” tragedy. If not, why is it so famous?
Akhter, J., Muhammed, K., & Naz, N. (2015, October). Sophocles’ Oedipus Rex: A deconstructive study. Advances in Language and Literary Studies. 6(5), 10-15. http://dx.doi.org/10.7575/aiac.alls.v.6n.5p.9
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago.
Stone, N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
First of all, that was Morgan Ramsey. Second of all, Mrs. Nayback, you wanted me to add the comment that we had to do the database citation by hand second hour and that is why it was posted slightly after 9AM.
DeleteI completly agree that Justyce is considered other. The way he is treated is obviously differant because he is a person of color. He also does not have the best luck which is very sad.
Deletemaddison savola ^
DeleteFirst off, I really enjoyed reading your blog. Second off, I agree with all of your thoughts. Dear Martin is a tragedy, but Oedipus, by far, shows much more of a dramatic tragedy story. Both go through whirlwinds of emotions and hurtful actions.
DeleteThough both books display many tragic elements, I feel Oedipus Rex does a better job at doing so. Guilt is one of the main characteristics in this play and it becomes clear that guilt existed in both the Thebes and in Oedipus. Oedipus' goal was to banish the sinful person from Thebes in order to purify the city but he finds himself guilty because of his shameful past. This play also highlights a Catharsis. When Teiresias tells Oedipus that he had killed his own father and the person he had kids with was actually his mother, it changes his life and changes the reader's perspective. Depending how you look at it, betrayal plays a big part in this play since he killed his own father and isn”t wanting to take ownership(even though he didn’t know it was his father.). Betrayal is also seen between Oedipus and Laius when he is first born. “Before Laius exposed the child, he pierced its ankles with brooches. The Byzantine chroniclers say that the child's feet were nailed into wooden shackles. The child was given the name Oedipus meaning swollen foot.”(Edmunds,1984,pg 10). Lastly, the whole play Oedipus shows hubris. After he solved the Sphinx's riddle he brags that he has done it before and says, ”And justly you will see me an ally, a champion of my country and the God. Whoever he was that killed the king may readily wish to dispatch me with his murderous hand.”(Sophocles,2010,pg 16-17). When he realizes that he’s the one who caused the plague, he loses his confidence.
ReplyDeleteIn Dear Martin I think the tragic theme is mainly centered around injustice. The first few pages hint at the tragic theme while the main character Justyce is thrown in handcuffs while he is trying to help his drunk ex into her car, presumably due to the color of his skin. The cop refuses to let Justyce explain the situation and say, “You keep your mouth shut. I know your kind: Punks like you wander the streets looking for prey.”(Stone,2017,pg 8). In his first letter to Martin he writes, "Last night changed me. I don't wanna walk around all pissed off and looking for problems, but I know I can't continue to pretend nothing's wrong.”(Stone,2017,pg 12). The Grief around Manny's death also adds to the tragic theme. During his funeral, “He would love to just get up and walk out. He takes in all the dark suits and dresses, the tearstained faces and shaking shoulders, and the collective sorrow hits him so hard, the room blurs out of focus.”(Stone,2017,pg 126).
Both of the leaders in these tragedies have their flaws, but it still teaches me that they are able to fight through the difficulties that they face. I have not completed Oedipus rex yet but when it comes to Oedipus, he lacks the ability to take responsibility for his actions and I feel this will affect him negatively in the future. In Dear Martin, Justyce shows more that he is a good person than he is a leader. Justyce has many great traits of a leader in the beginning of the book but when nothing seems to be going his way and he stops writing to Martin, it seems that he gives up(I’m not done yet so it could change).
Egan, R. B. (2018). Oedipus: the Ancient Legend and its Later Analogues by Lowell Edmunds (review). Echos Du Monde Classique: Classical Views, 30(1), 73–74.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago .
Stone, N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
I definitely agree on Oedipus the King being a better tragedy. It contains the main points of identifying a tragedy and laid down tracks for many more tragedies afterword. I think Dear Martin is pushes the point of racism and injustice, but I feel that it is a bit dramatic compared to real-world instances. For example, a teenager would not normally get shot at a traffic light by an off-duty officer, just because their music was too loud. Justyce possesses great leadership qualities, but he lets his anger and frustration with the world get to him and alter his ability to be the best he can.
DeleteThe play Oedipus Rex by Sophocles is considered a tragedy meaning it will have multiple examples of the elements of a tragedy. The book A Hundred Secret Senses by Amy Tan is classified as domestic fiction, this does not mean it does not have any elements of tragedy. Both of these works use the element of death. With Oedipus Rex dealing with the death of Liaus and the main character of A Hundred Secret Senses dealing with the death of her father as a child. Furthermore A Hundred Secret Senses has the element of lies, this is because the father hid a second daughter from everyone for 18 years, including his second wife “In fact, Mom didn’t even know Kwan existed until shortly before father died of renal failure”. (Tan, 1995, pg. 4) The book also uses the element of disappointment “And by telling myself that there was nothing inside those hopes anyway, I avoided the wounds of deep disappointment’. (Tan, 1995, pg. 8) This was spoken by the main character Olivia in reference to her mothers neglect. The play Oedipus Rex also deals with disappointment when Oedipus is disappointed in Teiresias and his inability to answer his questions outside of a riddle.
ReplyDeleteAs for the database information I used the L’Année philologique database and the Journal Article Philosophical Meaning in Oedipus Rex by Effie Coughanowr. In this article it discusses why Sophocles wrote Oedipus Rex in the way he did with all of the subtlety and riddles instead of explicit details and straightforward answers. The journal argues that he writes like this because “Because of his sophrosyne he would not risk - like Socrates or Protagoras - a happy, successful public and private life to proclaim his own gospel’. (Coughanowr, 1997 pg.57) In simpler terms because Sophocles has so much self control he is able to make his audience discover information themselves instead of just giving them answers like his peers. This ties into the Greek element of tragedy, continuously brought up in the play, called hubris. Hubris is excessive self-confidence. Based on the journal's evidence Sophocles not only wrote about hubris but had it as well.
Coughanowr, E. (1997). Philosophical Meaning in Oedipus Rex. L'Antiquité Classique, 55–74. Retrieved October 21, 2021, from https://www.persee.fr/doc/antiq_0770-2817_1997_num_66_1_1268.
Tan, A. (1995). The Hundred Secret Senses. Random House Pub
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago
Delete(this citation got cut off when moving from one platform to another)
While Dear Martin may not be considered a true tragedy, it definitely shares several characteristics of a traditional tragedy with Oedipus Rex. To start, both stories begin with a sign of bad news; Oedipus’ people contracting a mass plague and Larry’s tree being knocked down. Both books can teach us a lot about what it is like to be a leader, as well as being an ‘other’. Oedipus, in my opinion, was not a very good leader, because he made foolish decisions and lied to his people just to please them. In Oedipus Rex, is it stated that Oedipus killed his father, another old man, and then married his mother. He is a very rage-filled leader and does not know how to maintain a kingdom properly. “In terms of the evidence, it certainly seems clear that Oedipus killed “all” in the party. Also clear, for most readers, is that by doing so he ignorantly killed his true father, King Laius of Thebes.” (Fosso, 2012). Now, in Dear Martin, Justyce would be considered the “other”. He feels that he is constantly mistreated, even though he is extremely smart and accomplished. At the beginning of the book, he is arrested by a racist police officer while attempting to help his drunk girlfriend home, as the officer thinks he is stealing the car. “You keep your mouth shut.” The cop squats and gets right in Justyce’s face. “I know your kind; punks like you wander the streets of nice neighborhoods searching for prey. Just couldn’t resist the pretty white girl who’d locked her keys in her car, could ya?” (Stone, 2017, pg. 8). Officer Castillo assumed Justyce was up to no good because he was black and was wearing a black hoodie. Both Oedipus and Justyce face their own respected hardships, but Jus represents an individual who feels like they are an outsider or one of the “others”, while Oedipus portrays a leader that is in panic and does not know how to properly control his people in their current condition.
ReplyDeleteFosso, K. (2012). Oedipus Crux:Reasonable Doubt in “Oedipus the King.” College Literature, 39(3), 26–60. http://www.jstor.org/stable/23266055
Stone, N. (2017). Dear Martin. Crown.
I agree that Dear Martin has multiple tragic elements. Another would be high status. I am not sure where Larry's tree comes into this because it's not one of the books were reading at the moment. However, I understand that that is the bad omen which is part of a tragedy.
DeleteI agree with our statement about Justyce being an ¨other¨, I would not quite say he is a leader yet in the book though he has the character traits to be.
Deleteyour*
Delete*Argue which tragic elements from your new book and Oedipus Rex are displayed.
ReplyDeleteThere are many tragic elements displayed in both Dear Martin and Oedipus Rex, though I think Oedipus Rex has more tragedy. The biggest tragic element from the play is Hamartia. Which is a hero's tragic flaw; the aspect of the character which ultimately leads to their downfall. I am just foreshadowing because this has not happened yet but I think that because Oedipus killed the former king, Laius, (his father) there will be a big consequence when he is found guilty. I believe he is guilty because the prophet Teiresias who can not lie and has the ability to see the future says ¨I tell you, king, this man, this murderer - he is here.¨(Sophocles, 2010, pg.30). Both my book and the play start out with tragedies. In Dear Martin, Justyce is trying to do the right thing but ends up getting put in handcuffs. In Oedipus Rex it begins with the news of the murder of King Laius.
*What new information have you learned about Sophocles or about tragedy from the REQUIRED database search? Copy/paste this to the end of your blog posting. How may some of this display in your new book?
For my database research I discovered why Oedipus was basically thrown away by his parents. There was a prophecy saying that their son would kill Laius so they sent him far away hoping this fate would not come true.
Resources
Storr, F. (1912). Oedipus Trilogy : Oedipus the King, Oedipus at Colonus & Antigone. Mulva Library Catalog. Retrieved October 20, 2021, from https://eds.p.ebscohost.com/eds/detail/detail?vid=4&sid=960e144b-1c7b-4276-8d93-853e75fae4a8%40redis&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWRzLWxpdmUmc2NvcGU9c2l0ZQ%3d%3d#db=cat08312a&AN=snc.476156278.
Stone , N. (2017). Dear Martin. Penguin Random House LLC.
Sophocles. (2010). Oedipus The King . The University Of Chicago.
Along with what you said about the news of King Laius' murder, the blight that is currently affecting society is also a good hint that Oedipus is a tragedy. It shows that there is obviously something wrong and could foreshadow that something even worse will happen. I also agree that Oedipus is leading to his downfall as a leader. He does not take action in trying to solve the issues in which he is possibly the reason they are happening.
DeleteI agree that Oedipus has captured more specifically the elements of tragedy. I also felt that he would get punished, which is what I found to be true after hearing of others' database reads. While this is more of a classical tragedy, I still feel that Dear Martin is a heartbreaking novel that is modernized to today's society. I personally felt more touched reading Dear Martin, but I agree Oedipus fits the term "tragedy" better.
DeleteBlog2 adding onto first post
DeleteI do in fact believe Justyce was only treated the way he was by the cops because he is african american and he thinks so too. ¨Yeah, there are no more ¨colored¨ water fountains, and it´s supposed to be illegal to discriminate, but if I can be forced to sit on the concrete in too-tight cuffs when I´ve done nothing wrong, it´s clear there´s an issue¨.(Stone, 2017, pg.12-13).
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DeleteBooks are very versatile tools, capable of holding any sum of human knowledge, along with stories. However, some knowledge can only be taught through stories, such is the case with the books Oedipus Rex and Native Son. Oedipus Rex is an ancient book written by the Greek philosopher Sophocles, and it is also a tragedy. This means that Oedipus Rex demonstrates multiple tragic elements commonly found in other tragedies, such as the idea of fate being unchangeable, gods and divine knowledge, betrayal, and hubris in the main character. Native Son is another story, written by Richard Wright, and it tells the story of Bigger Thomas, a 20 year old black man, and how he goes through life with his struggles. Native Son does not appear to be a tragedy, but I haven’t read the book enough to know for sure. I do believe the book could be a tragedy as I am at a point where Bigger seems to be getting himself into a good position, so maybe the climax of the book will be his fall from the grace of his new position and back to his original, poorer conditions.
ReplyDeleteThese books teach us about what it’s like to be a leader and an “other” because they go through the lives of what it’s like to be a less represented part of society. In Oedipus, you can see how Oedipus has to make such big calls and has to deal with many problems. The problem plaguing him in the beginning of this story is a blight on his city of Thebes, and he has to contact multiple people about how to fix this problem. In Native Son, the story is directly about Bigger Thomas, who lives with his mother, brother, and sister in a one room house. The living conditions are deplorable and there are even rats inside of their small room, “Carefully, (Bigger) stuck out his bare foot and pushed the trunk a few inches. … A huge black rat squealed and leaped at Bigger’s trouser-leg and snagged it in his teeth, hanging on.” (Wright, 1940, pg 3) Both of these books allow for different perspectives on people, yet they both still have massive problems of their own.
Moreno Pestaña, J. L. (2020). Oedipus Rex as a philosophical and political strategy. Sociological Review, 68(5), 1092–1107. https://doi.org/10.1177/0038026119900117
Wright, R. (1940) Native Son. HarperCollins Publishers
Grene, D. (1942) Sophocles Oedipus The King. The University of Chicago
I like your tone keeping sympathetic instead of accusatory. It helps show how much pressure Oedipus was under which i agree was immense.
DeleteI am also reading Native Son and agree that it is not a tragedy. I may not be as far as you but just because the story does not start out 100% happy, does not mean that it will be a tragedy. The story does not show enough tragic elements. I am curious if there will be some sort of twist in book two that will show more tragic elements or if the story will begin to be happier.
DeleteI'm just getting to the part where Bigger is talking to Mr. Dalton about working for him, and it seems like the job would put him in a way better position. This makes e think that maybe the book will have some sort of twist and it might turn into a tragedy when Bigger loses his job and, in turn, his higher status from the job. But this is just speculation.
DeleteI am at the same spot. The job does show a more positive outlook in the story but you are right, this may lead to a downfall eventually.
DeleteBoth the story A Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini and Oedipus: The King by Sophocles are tragedies. Oedipus had killed not only the king but his father by accident while being unaware that the king was his father as well. This was later revealed by Tiresias, a man who cannot lie. In the book A Thousand Splendid Suns, the young girl Mariam is also convinced that the death of her mother was her own fault. Mariam feels this way due to her mother claiming “Don’t leave me Mariam jo. Please stay. I’ll die if you go.” (Hosseini, 2007, p.27), turns out her mother was right. When young Mariam arrived home after days of disappointment from her father, she found her mother hanging by a tree. Both of these main characters had lost one of their parents. The loss of Mariam’s mother is definitely more tragic, as well as the book as A Thousand Splendid Suns as a whole. Oedipus had done what he did to his father out of selfishness and greed, while Mariam was just a young 15 year old girl who wanted to visit her father. A journal article claims that Oedipus is a “tragedy of destiny” (Dodds, 1966), meaning that Oedipus had deserved what he had gotten, and that no man lives under free will. Because the tragedy that happened to Oedipus was his fault and came off as karmic, I believe that A Thousand Splendid Suns was a more tragic story.
ReplyDeleteReferences
Dodds, E. R. (1966). On Misunderstanding the “Oedipus Rex.” Greece & Rome, 13(1), 37–49. http://www.jstor.org/stable/642354
Hosseini, K. (2007). A thousand splendid suns. New York: Riverhead Books.
Sophocles, ., Berg, S., & Clay, D. (1978). Oedipus the King. New York: Oxford University Press.
Although I am not reading your book, it seems like you are making a good comparison by explaining how they both lost a parent. I agree that your book sounds more tragic than the play. I will say that I agree that what he did was selfish to his father, but he also did not know it was him while he was doing it. I feel that if he would have known it was his father it could have ended up differantly
DeleteBooks can teach us many things about our leaders and being “others”. The first tragedy that I found in my new book “Dear Martin” was when Justyce had been put in handcuffs by police because they had assumed he was trying to kidnap a girl. In reality, he was only trying to prevent her from driving because she had been drinking. Because Justyce is a black male he struggles with discrimination. As the cop is questioning him he says “ I know your kind: punks like you wander the streets of nice neighborhoods searching for prey.” (Dear Martin, 2017, pg.8) In our new play, Oedipus Rex the biggest tragedy so far to me is what leads to Oedipus sleeping with his mother. I feel that there have to be some serious problems for something to lead to a mother sleeping with her child. Oedipus states “Since I am now the holder of his office, and have his bed and life that once was his, and had his line not been unfortunate we would have common children.” ( Sophocles, 2010, pg.21 ) A quote from my database “He is the crisis of differentiation incarnate, the husband who is son and brother and father.”
ReplyDeletemaddison savola ^
DeleteThe idea that you could be discriminated against just because of you color is a scary thought, especially if you're just a teenager. It would be terrible if you were to try to help someone, just for you to get put in danger because of someone's incorrect prejudice. I also think that it's a tragedy that Oedipus is sleeping with his mother, but I feel like there are so many other tragedies that led up to these circumstances, like how Oedipus killed his father and didn't even know it.
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