Whose Fault Is it? Can this teach us anything about America?
*Argue which character/s from both Oedipus the King and YOUR OWN BOOK CHOICE caused the most problems for the tragic (or any tragic) circumstances. There is not one correct answer, but be prepared to defend using quotes from both texts.
*You may wish to incorporate if characters may be like our own leaders or leaders in history as part of your response.
You may discuss any segment of the novel, including the end of your own. You do not have to have finished the full play of Oedipus the King at this point
Any quotations that are used must be cited APA style, but if from Oedipus, please cite lines (131-133) for example.
Please take into considering societal, historical, and.or gender roles in your response (or you may have other ideas).
For full credit, you MUST have quotations as support of your points, you MUST show reading and avoid online summary info, you MUST respond to a minimum of 2 posts. Points will be deducted for those students who wait until the last 12-24 hours, for spelling problems, repeating information already stated, confusing responses, attacking classmates verbally, simply agreeing without saying much of anything, or off-topic commentary.
------Having support from databases may be given additional credit if used well----
DATABASES ARE NOT REQUIRED FOR THIS BLOG, but your argument will be judged harshly, so be prepared to defend yourself!
**This blog will end at noon on 10/16. Remember that starting on the last 12-24 hours prior will result in loss of points since your discussion will be limited.
We have not gotten into much of "Oedipus the king", but I believe Creon is going to be causing a large amount of problems. Him being the past king before Oedipus took over leaves him to possibly be "power hungry". As Mrs. Nayback said, it is like Donald Trump seeking advisory from Joe Biden, it isn't going to end well. Creon returns from Apollo's temple with news of how to cure the disease. Creon states "If you will hear my news before these others, I am ready to speak, or else go within"(Sophocles, line 91-92). He is saying he wants the floor to share his news and establish himself as someone who knows what to do.i I predict Creon is going to try and take power back by sabotaging Oedipus and swooping in like a hero.
ReplyDeleteIn the book I read, "Dear Martin", Jared Christensen, one of the wealthy, Caucasian students seems to cause the most issues. Throughout the entirety of the novel he is making subtle, racist comments towards Justyce (the main character and African American). At one point he mentions that Justyce should not have gotten into Yale over him because "I got higher test scores than Justyce...yet he got into Yale early action and I know for a fact it's because he's white and I'm black"(Stone, pg 59). These comments build up anger inside Justyce throughout the weeks and one day he snaps. He and his best friend Manny(who is also African American) end up getting into a fight with another group of kids. One of the kids' parents ends up pressing charges against Manny.
Caden- I heavily agree with you when you say that Creon will be causing a lot of problems. Since he shares power with Oedipus, it is foreshadowing the idea that Creon will become power hungry and try to overthrow Oedipus to have the throne all to himself. Although I do think that Creon is power hungry, I also believe he has good intentions. He went to the oracle to find out news about why the town has a horrible plague and brought back all of the information to help stop it. He seems like he is committed to helping stop the plague and committed to helping Oedipus. "I will tell you, then, what I heard from the god. King Phoebus in plain words commanded us to drive out a pollution grown ingrained within the land; drive it out, said the God, not cherish it, till it's past cure." (Sophocles, Lines 95-98)
DeleteIn my book I am reading "The Color Purple", there isn't too much problem with racism but there are a couple parts that are very racist. Specifically there is this one part where this lady named Sofia is walking around the town and the Mayor's wife says that they all look so clean and asks Sofia to be her maid. Sofia gets very offended and believes that the only reason she was asked to become a maid was because she is black; and if she were white she would never be asked such a thing. "All these children, say the mayor's wife, digging in her pocketbook. Cute as little buttons though, she say. She stop, put her hand on one of the children's head. Say, and such strong white teef. Sofia and the prizefighter don't say nothing. Wait for her to pass. Mayor wait too stand back and tap his foot, watch her with a little smile. Now Millie, he say. Always going on over colored. Miss Millie finger the children some more, finally look at Sofia and the prizefighter. She look at the prizefighter car. She eye Sofia wristwatch. She say to Sofia, all you children are so clean, she say. Would you like to work for me, be my maid? Sofia say, hell no." (Walker, Pg. 75-76)
Caden I do not think you are wrong about Creon will be causing a lot of problems because he is mad that he is not king anymore and he is jealous. Also in the book I read Ditch Diggers Daughter the wealthy caused some problems in that the daughters could not solve besides beating them at their own game which is homework. The family was singing at a club and they were winning but the rich people did not like that so they changes the rules. "On the Tuesday before the Wednesday of the fourth week, Daddy got a call from the manager of the Apollo Theatre saying "It is gonna six weeks of winning instead of four."
DeleteCaden - I agree with you completely that Creon will become a big trouble maker later on in the play. I do think that Creon is "Power Hungry", that will get him into trouble in the future and it could possibly get him killed even.
DeleteCaden--- I agree Creon will try to sabotage Oedipus and try the regain the throne. Especially if Oedipus did kill the former king.i also read "Dear Martin" I do think the Author is trying to use the book to push the message, but however I don't think that the author is trying to push how police are a "huge contributor to racism. I think Nic Stone is showing the diversity a young successful black teen undergoes. In this case Justyce every racist moment in the novel. Mainly I believe Nic Stone is showing that racism is everywhere in a small expensive private school to the streets.
DeleteNow that I have done more reading I can tack onto what I said earlier this week
DeleteTiresias seems to have caused anger in Oedipus and he is turning his back on everyone. He has now been accused by Tiresias and Creon of killing King Laius.
Throughout the entire novel "Dear Martin" Jared Christenen has been a main cause of Justyce's distress. However in the end Jared says he is thinking of minoring in African American studies. Him and Justyce seem to become friends while mourning the loss of their friend.
Nice job being first---don't forget the year with APA citation between author and year.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't mind a few more examples of the racism you refer to that Manny says. Since I am not African American, I didn't think of certain things being racist until I was in the mind of characters like Bigger, Justyce, or others we are reading about.
So, what do you think may be a problem specifically and what tragic aspect may this lead us to? It's guessing at this point, but I imagine that insults may fly in Oedipus soon as well...
Another big example of blatant racism is when Manny and Justyce are riding together with the music loud and an off duty cop pulls up next to them at a red light, calls them the n word telling them to turn it down, and then ends up shooting them when they don't comply. Or when another cop puts Justyce in handcuffs and basically brutalizes him just for trying to bring his drunk girlfriend home. The author clearly sees police as a huge contributor to racism, both in the novel and in real life.
DeleteHubris-I have a feeling that Oedipus is gonna be too stubborn and not get the help he needs to solve the massive problem they have at hand. I also have a hunch that Creon is actually going to attempt to kill Oedipus. Creon seems to be willing to do anything to get power back.
I think that in "Oedipus the King" Creon and Oedipus will get into some sort of fight further on in the play. I think that Creon will come and attempt to take the throne back that was once his. Creon comes into this play acting nice and really not causing any issues but I believe that will change soon. Creon will most likely not be successful based on the title of this play, "Oedipus the King". I predict that Oedipus will kill Creon when Creon tries to take power back.
ReplyDeleteIn the novel that I am reading "The Ditchdigger's Daughters" education plays a large roll in gaining respect towards African American people. The mother of the family believes that education is very important and she really pushes her children to further their education and do well at it. This pays off in the long run when they go on to get good jobs. But people go to respect them more as they go to college and become well educated. The awful stereotype of African Americans is depleted when they do well in school and get a good job.
I don't think that Creon will be cause of all the issues because I think he is genuine in his loyalty for Oedipus. I think that right now the people wouldn't even trust Creon if he even took the throne back because he failed in helping the city against the sphinx. I think that the people have too much loyalty in Oedipus for such a transition of power to occur unless Oedipus is murdered by a 3rd party and Creon is the only remaining person who could take the throne. You also said that you think Oedipus will remain the king because of the title of the play. I think the opposite. I think that Oedipus will be either killed or exiled in the end because it is a Tragedy and he is the character with the highest title so he will fall.
DeleteEthan- I agree with you when you say that you predict Oedipus will kill Creon, but I believe that Creon is not the monster that he seems. He went to the oracle to seek information on how to stop the plague (which I already mentioned in Caden's reply) but Creon also was so polite to ask Oedipus if he wants to hear the information in front of the citizens, or in private. Creon cared about the citizens enough to ask if they should hear the news. He was trying to spare them the bad news and not cause them to worry. "If you will hear my news before these others I am ready to speak, or else go within." (Sophocles, Lines 93-94)
DeleteIn my book "The Color Purple", it is believed that women do not need to be educated. The sister of the main character is a teacher and there is only one girl in her class; her daughter. It is believed that women are nothing more than a mother and wife. "Olivia is the only girl. The Olinka do not believe girls should be educated. When I asked a mother why she thought this, she said: a girl is nothing to herself; only to her husband can she become something." (Walker, Pg. 132)
I agree that African American stereotypes are depleted when they have a good education, but I do not think the racism ever was gone entirely. When Yvonne goes into the military, she is undermined by the white men even though she has graduated at the top of her class and is still in school to further her education. I do not believe being educated erases racism.
DeleteEthan--Provide specific support from the novel. Ethan--what tragic element will this be?
ReplyDeleteCaden--Remember, we should be done with the books or close by the end of the week. The examples you have shown are correct, but aren't those from the first few chapters? Try to add on more from throughout the book to show you have read.
In "Oedipus the King" I believe that Oedipus will make the gods made and it may get him killed. I think the sacrifices that have been made clearly aren't working and some other character that has not been mentioned yet possibly Teiresias will help Oedipus. "Our sorrows defy numbers; all the ship's timbers are rotten; talking of thought is no spear for the driving away of the plague. There are no growing children in this famous land; there are no women bearing the pangs of childbirth. (Oedipus the King, lines 168-172) This quote is from Strophe and is telling the reader there are many problems in the story that need to be resolved.
ReplyDeleteI chose "Dear Martin" as my novel. Justyce and Sj are apart of a debate club at there state championship Justyce "didn't want to be the black guy accused of "playing the race card" at a state tournament"(page 79). "I know we might be throwing away our chance at a win, but if we get some facts out there, maybe make people think a little bit, it'll be worth it,right?" (Sj page 79) SJ didn't care about a "race card" being played she only called about sticking up or Justyce and trying get a massage that blacks are being racial profiled. The fact that Justyce was scared of what people would say if Sj and him won the tournament is sad.
I agree that oedipus will in the end have the biggest tragic flaw. He seems arrogant and over confident. I think he will get sent to the gods also and will upset them in some way. I think Creon and Oedipus will both want full power and will argue over if they will sacrifice anybody else, and if so who. In the end I think there might be a downfall of Thebes, since there are no more children being born as the quote form( Oedipus the king, lines 168-172) state. Maybe the falling of thebes will be what sends oedipus to the gods.
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DeleteI agree that Oedipus is going to do some things he may regret. He has acted untrusting so far and has been accused by two different people of being the killer. He and Creon are both going to fighting for power and I agree with you that Oedipus will have the biggest tragic flaw. I think it will allow Creon to take back power
DeleteYou are correct in saying SJ didn't care about being judged for arguing about black rights. However i don't think it was sad that Justyce didn't want to. Look at it from his point of view, he has been profiled his entire life and I would be scared too, he probably thinks everybody will hate him if he tried to argue about it.
In the play “Oedipus the King”, there are numerous characters who I believe will cause a lot of problems. But being more specific, I believe that the murderer of Laius will cause a lot of conflict. Since he used to be the ruler of Thebes, I believe that when he is found, he will most likely not want to leave because he wants to take back the throne. And since he is the sole reason why the plague won’t stop, he will not want to leave because he wants to have power over the plague. This will cause a lot of conflict between Oedipus, Creon and the murderer of Laius. Creon asks Oedipus if he wants to hear how to rid the plague in front of the citizens or in private, and then Oedipus says in front of the citizens. Creon then explains that there is a pollution in their town, being the murderer of Laius, and he must be driven out. “If you will hear my news before these others I am ready to speak, or else go within.” (Sophocles, Lines 91-92) “By banishing a man, or expiation of blood by blood, since it is murder guilt which holds our city in this destroying storm.” (Sophocles, Lines 100-102) “Who is this man whose fate the god pronounces?” (Sophocles, Line 103) “My lord, before you piloted the state we had a king called Laius.” (Sophocles, Line 104) “The god commanded clearly: let someone punish with force this dead mans murderers.) (Sophocles, Lines 106-107)
ReplyDeleteIn the book i'm reading “The Color Purple” there is mainly one character who causes SO much conflict. His name is Albert, or as the main character Celie refers to him as “Mr. _____”.
Albert continuously abuses and rapes his wife named Celie, and often for reasons that are not valid. Celie is stuck in this abusive relationship that she can not escape. “She come over and put her hand on my shoulder. He beat me when you not here, I say. Who do, she say, Albert? Mr. ______ I say.” (Walker, Pg. 66) Another reason why Albert is a character who causes conflict is that he had a ton of letters from Celie’s sister Nettie hidden from Celie in the back of his car. He had years worth of letters hidden from her. Celie has not seen Nettie since she was young, and she hasn’t even been able to read her letters; that is until she finds them. “Now that I know Albert hiding Nettie’s letters, I know exactly where they is. They is his trunk. Everything that means something to Albert go in his trunk. He keep it locked up tight, but Shug can git the key. One night when Mr. _____ and Grady are gone, us open the trunk. Us find a lot of Shug’s underclothes, some nasty picture postcards, and way down under his tobacco, Nettie’s letters. Bunches and bunches of them. Some fat, some thin. Some open, some not.” (Walker, Pg. 106)
While I agree with you that the murderer of the king will be the person who causes the most problems, I do think that the killer is Oedipus. You mention that you think the murderer will want to take throne by means of holding the city hostage using the plague, but I don't think that's what will happen. Even if the murderer won in the end and Oedipus gave him the throne, what throne even is that? The throne of a plague filled city on the brink of collapse? The people of the city would defend themselves and kick the new king out anyway. Today we read that Teiresias thinks Oedipus is the killer so your argument might have some new points or not.
DeleteGiven the information you have about "The Color Purple" I agree with you that Mr. ____ is the antagonist.
I agree that there is going to be conflict between oedipus, croon, and the murder of Laius. I think oedipus wants to look noble in front go his citizens and that is why he wants to hear how to get rid of the plague in front of them. I think conflict is coming from the line(Sophocles, lines 91-92)by banishing a man, or expiation of blood by blood." I think Oedipus and creon will get into an argument about who they will kill and they both want the power in the end.
DeleteAlexis- I agree with you that the murder of Laius will force there to be a lot of conflict in the play. Laius was looked up to by a lot of people but a lot of people did not look up to him and when you have powerful people that feel different ways about something or someone then you can have trouble. I also agree with you that Creon will not want to leave because he is very power hungry and he will want to attempt to take over his throne that was once his and that will cause a lot of hate between Oedipus and Creon.
Deletewhile I do agree with you that Laius' murderer will cause a lot of conflict throughout the remainder of the story, Teiresias reveals to us that Oedipus is said murderer, by saying "You are the land's pollution." (Line 353). Due to this reveal, I would not say that the conflict will be the murderer wanting the throne but, Oedipus himself being to stubborn to give it up. I believe that Creon will have to force Oedipus off the throne and that it will end in bloodshed.
DeleteDo I think this teaches us anything about America?
DeleteI believe this teaches us that everything is not what it seems, especially since I think Oedipus is the murderer. It shows us to never be too comfortable and to always keep an eye open. They are blaming each other and no one can be trusted. "Not twice you shall say calumnies like this and stay unpunished. Shall I say more to tempt your anger more? As much as you desire; it will be said in vain." (Sophocles, lines 362-366)
I think you are correct that the murderer will cause a lot of problems. But Tiresias (who does not tell a lie) tells us that Oedipus is the murderer. I think all these accusations towards Oedipus will end in an overthrowing of him. Whether it is by a battle or a riot that straight up rips him of his power.
DeleteI did not read "The Color Purple" but from what you have said I agree that Albert sounds like the main antagonist. By him being abusive and taking advantage of his wife for no reason, he 100% sounds like a bad man.
Alexis- I agree that the murder of the former king will cause a lot of problems throughout the play. Tiresias tells Oedipus he is the pollution of the land.
DeleteI think that the person who will be causing the problems is Oedipus. If Teiresias cannot lie and is a prophet who gained his power from the Gods we should believe him. But, Teiresias also brings up that fate and the God Apollo have already led him down this path. (Oedipus the King, lines 376-377) I think Oedipus and Bigger have slightly similar situations because both of them being the main cause for their demise. They are like pawns in much bigger people's games and already have a fate set out for them. The gods for Oedipus, and the racist white society for Bigger. Like when bigger signed his confession playing directly into Buckley's hands. "That was not as hard as I thought it would be, Buckley said.'He came through like a clock." (Native Son,1940, pg. 358). Oedipus himself said Teiresias is the best person to use in this situation to figure out who the killer is (Oedipus the King, line 305), so in a way he also signed his own confession. Max, Bigger's lawyer, says that society has created bigger and that it was bound to happen, "The complex forces of society have isolated here for us a symbol, a test symbol. The prejudices of man have stained this symbol..."(Native Son, 1940, pg. 444). Like how the gods might've played Oedipus into killing the king, a racist society played into Bigger killing. Both are at complete fault, but other motives pushed them in the direction of killing. Both stories have a heavy theme of the illusion of free will the characters have.
ReplyDeleteIn the play" Oedipus the king", there is a lot of setup for a tragedy. In the first act, when the priest is talking, there are several dying Thebes, showing something has gone very wrong. I think that Oedipus will become the character that developed the most tragic flaws. He is over confident and will develop into an issue. On line 350 oedipus states{"Had you had eyes I would have said alone you had murdered him"}. Oedipus has no reasoning behind him to cause Teiresias, he just believes he is always right. Oedipus is also a bad leader for Thebes, believing nothing is his fault. He states{" I pity you, children.You have come full of longing, but I have known the story before you told it."} He acknowledged the hard times the citizens went through but offers no guidance, just states that it hurts his spirit. which is not what a true leader would do.
ReplyDeleteIn my personal book " the ditch digger's daughters" the characters are wholesome hard working people, but the main character Yvonne is too trusting of her father. The whole family follows whatever daddy says until Jeanette, the oldest daughter speaks out. she says{" Daddy, if you're going to act like this, I don't want to be part of it anymore."}(pg. 127) Yvonne, her younger sister still follows her dad even after Jeanette wants her own freedom. Yvonne goes to a local college even though it probably won't help her get into a good medical program, just because daddy doesn't want her to grow up and leave, and Yvonne listens. Yvonne is applying to a medical program and the same issue comes up. The dean of the school says {"I've never heard of Monmouth College. How do you think you could hold your own with students coming from such high-powered schools"} (pg.143 )Yvonne was willing to put her future on the line for her dad, which is becoming her tragic flaw
Sophia I disagree when you say Yvonne is too trusting of her father. Without her father Yvonne and the rest of the girls would be nowhere. He taught them everthing and layed out their plan for success. Yes he was a little harsh and restrictive sometimes but that is what led too a successful future for those girls. Dependance on her father, which could have lasted too long, is the main reason she became who she is today.
DeleteFollowing her dad’s wishes, Yvonne became a double Board-certified specialist in obstetrics, gynecology, and maternal-fetal medicine. Yvonne Could have stoped her education when she became a doctor, but she wanted to be the best doctor she could be, and that was her choice. I do not think Yvonne caused problems; I think she tried to avoid them.
DeleteThough we have not gotten far in “Oedipus the King”, in the short amount of the play that we have gotten through, it has been revealed that Thebes is suffering from a pestilence that is caused by the unsolved murder of their former king, Laius, and the blind prophet, Teiresias, reveals that Oedipus, their current king, is the one at fault when he states, “You are the land’s pollution.” (Line 353). I believe that as the play continues on Creon will come to realize that Oedipus is the murderer and will attempt to do justice for Thebes. I believe that upon any confrontation, Oedipus may completely lose his temper and will attack/murder Creon in attempts to keep his throne and his murderous secret. Oedipus is proven to be short tempered when Teiresias does his job as a prophet and the answers were not what Oedipus wanted to hear, Oedipus lashes out and says, “It has, but not for you; it has no strength for you because you are blind in mind and ears as well as in your own eyes.” I think that this proves that if Creon were to confront Oedipus about the murder it would become a fierce argument/battle between the two. Therefore, I believe that Oedipus’ hubris and temper will be to blame for the tragic elements to come.
ReplyDeleteThe book I read, “The Color of Water” by James McBride, is a memoir/autobiography recounting both his life growing up in a mixed race family during the Civil Rights Movement and his mother Ruth’s life and struggles growing up. While reading this novel, I was left feeling as though Ruth was to blame for her children tragically having to grow up and live their adolescence filled with hatred and doubt for themselves. I feel sure of this belief because throughout the story it is a repeating theme of the children's questions about their identity and race being swept under the rug, leaving them confused and unsure of themselves. An example of this obvious disregard comes from when the author James was in kindergarten, James asks his mother “How come you don’t look like me?” and Ruth replies with, “I do look like you. I’m your mother. You ask too many questions.” (McBride, Pages 12-13) which left young James confused and unsure of who he is. As the novel went on, it became more and more obvious that the way his mother handled questions of race and identity bothered the children, at one point James even says, “I thought it would be easier if we were just one color, black or white. I didn't want to be white. My siblings had already instilled the notion of black pride in me. I would have preferred that Mommy were black.” (McBride, Page 103). Her ignorance toward the importance of knowing one's history made her children feel as though they needed to change their family dynamic to feel whole or to fit in. I believe that if Ruth had just given even the vaguest of answers to her children's basic questions they would not have been left confused and tragically filled with self-hatred as teens/young adults.
Second Oedipus quote is from lines 370-373. i did not see that i never wrote it.
DeleteOOO Ainsley thats a fantastic prediction that once creon finds out Oedipus is the murderer he will take action in the name of thebes. I hadnt thought that part through but I think you are right. Oedipus will fall too his anger issues and maybe realize too late that he is in the wrong. At that point it will be Creon who rises to the throne after all.
DeleteI should also add, though James and his eleven siblings all grew up to be highly educated and accomplished individuals my beliefs still stand. In the end, James does say that the way his mother raised them definitely led them to where they are now. But, I still believe that Ruth's children could have gotten themselves to where they are now in a much less draining and sad way. The kids did not need to endure an identity crisis as small children, childhood is the time to be open and learn about yourself, not to feel dirty and wrong about who you are.
DeleteI think your take about Ruth being the key contributor to their tragic element is very interesting. I looked at in in a way were society was the big bad entity when in reality it may be Ruth all along sheltering her children and not being outright and frank to assist her children in finding their identity.
DeleteI think your take about Ruth being the key contributor to their tragic element is very interesting. I looked at in in a way were society was the big bad entity when in reality it may be Ruth all along sheltering her children and not being outright and frank to assist her children in finding their identity.
DeleteSophia I read the same book as you and I totally agree that Yvonne trusts her dad too much but it did get them into the music business and she does end up being a doctor thanks to her dad. So there are some bad things that the dad does but he also was a huge help.
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ReplyDeleteSo far in Oedipus The King, there has been one person who really stands out to me as someone to cause problems. That person is Oedipus himself. It was recently revealed as an oracle by Teiresias that Oedipus was the one who killed the previous king. Teiresias says "you are the murderer of the king whose murderer you seek"(lines 362-363). Oedipus denies this fact which leads me to believe he is a murderer and a liar. Teiresias is gifted as a demi god who sees the future and can not tell a lie. Therefore I will certainly take his side on this one. Oedipus also seems to be using his fame for solving the riddle of the sphinx as an escape from his crime. When confronted with Teiresias tell him hes the murderer Oedipus says, "I solved the riddle by my wit alone... And now you would expel me" (lines 497-499). I will not be surprised if Oedipus turns out to be the true tragic enemey of the story.
ReplyDeleteIn the true story, The Ditchdigger's Daughters, Donald stands out to me as a tragic character who never realizes his tragic flaw. Donald is the father of 6 girls who he wants to all become doctors. He stresses the importance of studies in order to make it out of the circumstances they started in. But Donald takes things a step further and forces the girls to stay in contact only with the family. He doesnt want them socializing with anyone besides their own sisters. Donny believes any outside distractions are going to destroy the family hes worked to build. He says in the book "I wanted the band for the reason of giving my girls something in that so-called age of boys and the lipstick, something to continue to keep my family together"(Ditchdigger's Daughters, pg 101). This philosophy seems incredibly selfish and close minded of Donald to stick too for his whole life. While Donalds plan to have successful girls eventualy works out in the end, the question is could there still be successful children with a little bit more freedom?
Mitchell-- I agree with you that Oedipus' lying will only dig him deeper into the hole that he has already dug himself. Despite Oedipus denying being the murderer, You are correct, Teiresias is 100% a much more reliable source than Oedipus. Oedipus is a murderer and his fame for defeating the Sphinx should not be forgiveness for killing a king.
DeleteI definitely agree that Oedipus is currently causing the most trouble. Pointing out that Teiresias cannot lie only proves that Oedipus is causing issues and trying to prove himself wrong. Just because he solved a riddle and got rid of a terrifying creature, it does not excuse him from possibly kill Laius.
DeleteI also agree the Donald is selfish, much like Oedipus, in the plan he had made for his children. He has an awesome goal for his girls but pushing them to stay with only the family and not go out to also be their own person and figure out the world for themselves. People can only take so much control before they begin to feel secluded or that they're missing key experiences that then destroy their adult life.
I am in agreeance with your claims about Oedipus. I to side with Teiresias because of his circumstances (not able to lie and can see the future)and what he had to say was not favorable for Oedipus in any way. His arrogance will almost certainly get in the way as the mystery of the pestilence continues to ravage Thebes.
DeleteIn the play Oedipus the king I think the person that will cause the most problems is Oedipus and I think the prophecy and his arrogance is what is going to make him cause problems. Oedipus seems very confident and defiant. Oedipus says ‘’ It was a prophet’s task and plainly you had no such gift of prophecy from birds nor otherwise from any God to glean a word of knowledge. But I came, Oedipus, who knew nothing, and I stopped her. I solved the riddle by my own wit alone. Mine was no knowledge got from birds.’’(Sophocles, lines 394-398) In these lines, Oedipus sounds Conceited. I believe Oedipus will not receive help due to this flaw.
ReplyDeleteIn the book The ditch diggers daughter the person that causes a lot of problems is Jennette. Jennette was described to be a lot like Donald her dad this meant they butted heads. When Jennet quit the band on page 127 they did not see her for a few months because of how stubborn and defiant she was. Daddy took it really hard Yvonne says “In between his fulminating outbursts, Daddy was a broken man. When Jennette left, so did his sense of purpose, his drive, his smile.” (Thorton, Pg.129)When Jennette left the band the family was not the same and there were a lot of problems they had to figure out like who will play the guitar in the band. At the end of the book, all the daughter’s wondered how their dad raised 6 successful women Jennette still had a grudge against daddy because she thought he was trying to “run his kids’ lives.” (Thorton, Pg. 254)
I don't really see how the prophecy will help Oedipus cause problems as it would more than likely help others refute his claims but I definitely agree that he is the one causing the most trouble. Him being conceited and believing that solving the riddle is what makes him unable to have committed murder- explained in "I solved the riddle by my own wit alone."- is a major problem that will likely come back in the future of the book.
DeleteI also agree that Jeanette is a problem character in the Ditch Digger's Daughter as I said in my own comment. Donald went into a state of depression basically after Jeanette left and put a damper on the Thornton Family.
From what we have read of Sophocles's Oedipus the King, I gather that Oedipus will be causing the most trouble. He continues to press that matter of finding the murder of Laius while Creon insists that there are more pressing matters. (Sophocles, 125-135) Oedipus then later claims that Teiresias knows what is going on but will not share the information, saying "You have no eyes but in your mind you know with what a plague our city is afflicted" (Sophocles, 303-304) There trying to throw the blame onto someone else for not helping. Because of his confidence, accusatory nature and short temper, I presume that Teiresias is right calling him the murder. Which means Oedipus will only continue to blame other people for Laius's death and the plague that has befallen the city. It is likely that he killed the king to ensure that he would not rise up and take his throne back.
ReplyDeleteI would then like to state that Oedipus's trouble making is much like Jeanette's trouble making in The Ditch Digger's Daughter by Dr. Yvonne Thornton. She spends much of her college life attempting to avoid the plans that their father has spent his whole life preparing them for. "I'm not going to be what you want me to be...if you don't like it, I'm outa here." (Thornton, pg 121) says Jeanette (causing problems for the family) as she began breaking away from the family plans and eventually destroying the major income source. This kind of trouble- splitting up the family and ruining the plans her father had already made and worked hard for, is what I imagine will happen in Oedipus. Jeanette and Oedipus are similar in the ideas that they are both stubborn and wish to be in charge of something for themselves. That it's them who should be pitied and no one else.
Austin- I agree with you that Oedipus will be the central conflict throughout the play. When Tiresias tells Oedipus he is the murderer, he becomes defensive. Causing more conflicts.
DeleteIn the play ”Oedipus the King,” there seem to be many conflicts between the characters already. But I believe Oedipus will cause the most problems. Oedipus seems to be conflicting with himself. When Creon shows up, Oedipus becomes uneasy. He doesn't trust Creon. When Creon enters, he says, “a good word, for things hard to bear themselves if in the final issue all is well account complete good fortune.” then Oedipus says, “what do you mean? what you have said so far leaves me uncertain whether to trust or fear” lines 87-90. Later on, Oedipus speaks to Tiresias, the blind man asking him what he knows about the murder of Laius. Tiresias at first refuses to tell Oedipus what he knows.
ReplyDeleteTiresias says,” I will not bring this pain upon us both, neither on you nor on myself. why is it you question me and waste your labor? I will tell you nothing”. Lines 332-335. Oedipus begins cursing and insulting the old man going as far as accusing him of the murder. Oedipus says,” you would provoke a stone! tell us, you villain, tell us, and do not stay in there quietly unmoved and balking at the issue”. Lines 335-337. Taunting Tiresias into telling Oedipus he is the murderer. Oedipus refuses to believe Tiresia's accusations. Theresa says,” I say you are the murderer of the king who is murderer you seek.” Lines 360-361. Oedipus then defies Creon in the Chorus as well.
In the book I am reading,” Monster,” there are many characters that cause conflict. The main character Steve Harmon a 16-year-old boy. A boy of color. Falsely accused of murder. While on trial, the prosecutor, the guards, and even some cellmates of Steve would harass him. The guards would make bets on how long Steve would be in jail or if he would plead innocent in the trial. The prosecutor dehumanizes Steve calling him a monster wanting to give him the death sentence. After The prosecutor called Steve a monster, he began to wonder if he was a monster. Steve says,” I feel like I already have monster tattooed on my forehead,” pg. 61. ”I want to look like a good person. I want to feel like I am a good person because I believe I am but being in here with these guys makes it hard to think about yourself as being different.” pg. 62. and in the end of the book, Steve wrote,” after the trial, my father with tears in his eyes help me close and said that he was thankful that I did not have to go to jail he moved away. The distance between us seems to grow bigger and bigger. I understand the distance. My father is no longer sure of who I am. He doesn’t understand me even knowing people like king or Bobo or Osvaldo he wonders what else he doesn’t know that is why I take the films of myself. I want to know who I am. I want to know the roads to panic that I took. I want to look at myself 1000 times to look for the one true image. When miss O’Brien looked at me after we had won the case, what did she see that caused her to turn away? What Did she see?” pg. 281
Even though I don't completely agree about who will cause the most issues your point about Oedipus's mistrust shows why he may be the real cause of the problems. With mistrust in a man who can literally see the future and cant lie it makes you wonder who he would trust. (my guess would be someone that feeds into his ego and only tells him things he wants to hear).
DeleteDue to only being 28 pages into Oedipus the King my predications may ring very incorrect but here they are. Firstly I think when Teiresias says “I say you are the murderer of the king
ReplyDeleteWhos murderer you seek.” (361-362) that he is telling the truth. This is problematic due to the king's extremely arrogant behavior. I think his arrogant personality and the truth of the real murder getting out will lead to an explosive result for Oedipus and believe he will be backed into a corner he cannot get out of. It is only a matter of time until Crean hears Teiresias’s claim and I think he will believe it. In other words, I’m thinking Creon will cause the most problems for Oedipus as his eyes are opened and the truth is revealed. Most likely Creon will take swift and heavy action against Oedipus if he finds out the truth, what that looks like remains to be seen. For a book that I am finished with however “The Color of Water” by James McBride the most problematic character is not even a character at all. Throughout The Color of Water Ruth Mcbride and her children are subject to harsh treatment from all walks of life. The most problematic “character” so to speak that contributed to their tragic circumstances was society, both first and second hand. The first-hand effects society played on the tragedy is the flat out harassment Ruth and her children experienced. “...sometimes laughing at us, pointing, muttering things like look at her with those little n******. I remember when a white man shoved her angrily as she led a group of us onto an escalator.” (Mcbride,1995 page 31). Extending past the first hand harassment (of which there was plenty), they also experienced the second hand contributions of society to their tragic circumstance. “...and my other relatives, all of whom were black. And they looked nothing like all the other heroes I saw, the guys in the movies, white men like Steve McQueen and Paul Neman who beat the bad guys and in the end got the pretty girl - who, incidentally was always white.”(McBride,1995 page 91) Through this process of systemic racism, blacks got phased out of media and had no one who looked like them on the silver screen or in media. This leads to a warped perspective of their own worth.
I do believe Teiresias is telling the truth like Mrs.Nayback said he can't lie. Also I think Creon will find out about the claim made about Oedipus and he will be backed into a corner and he'll try the weasel his way out. That is a very good point about how society is the problematic "Character". I read "Dear Martin" society does have a major effect on how Justyce is treated and how he was afraid to "play the race card" to win the state tournament.
DeleteI also read "The Color of Water," and I believe this is a good way to view the situations they faced. But I also think that Ruth had a big part in how the societal issues affected her children. Though her children grew up to be accomplished individuals as adults, when they were in their early childhood/teen years Ruth ignored their basic questions regarding race and identity. Ruth allowed her children to feel as though they needed to change in order to fit in and left them confused as to who they are and what their heritage is. So, yes, society can definitely have its own effect on everything, but the way you learn to deal with problems regarding race can also have a large effect.
DeleteI couldn't get it to post as not unknown but this is Larson btw.
ReplyDeleteI am surprised that no one blames James for his own tragic mistakes from The Color of Water. He was in a really bad place for awhile, but snapped out of it once he realized his music could help him to lead a better life (and his writing about it).
ReplyDeleteI would have liked more specifics from the end from all students and tragic elements were repeated or a bit weak at this first posting.
I partially agree with Ainsley about Ruth, but Ruth was likely always in survival mode. Single women back then often had to remarry in order to survive and to provide a decent income. I like that Ruth didn't see color as an issue, but I am sure back then it clearly was, especially to Ruth's father.
I am surprised that Cole didn't yet say whom he felt was to blame for Bigger's circumstances. Is Bigger truly ignorant or does the "white world" keep him purposefully in that position? The scene with the courtroom really bothered me as Mary was seen as a saintly white wonderful girl (she wasn't--she partied a lot) and the girlfriend Bessie has her naked bones but on display for the court--as though she was trash, but Mary's bones were not.
I didn't hear anything about The Color of Water where our protagonist switches from a tragic life to a much more hopeful once she decides that being in a relationship with a woman is much safer and more loving after all the color purple (bruises) she suffered from so much violence and abuse.
As for Monster, it scared me that such a young black man could be in prison and hated. I'm not saying the protagonist was innocent, but it seems a "norm" for young black men to be in this situation. Sadly, the protagonist Steve has a hard time getting anyone to see him for more than being a black "monster".
Both Josh and Caden seemed to hit the main points I needed for Dear Martin. The story isn't fully a tragedy, but for awhile, I was worried that Justyce's life wouldn't be what he deserved. Instead, he is hardly happy with losing his best friend, but he is able to move on despite the racism and the death---at least a bit.